[00:00:00] Daniel: Mhm. Hey there, Spacemakers. Welcome back to our podcast about making space for a meaningful life by doing less, not more. I'm Daniel Sih, your host, joined by my Spacemaking partner in crime, Matt Bain. We're exploring the fracturing of our attention and how to reclaim your focus. A special thanks to our sponsor Bulk Nutrients for supporting our journey to a more focused and intentional life.

[00:00:28] Daniel: They not only provide quality value for money supplements, but also invest in the health and wellbeing of our communities.

[00:00:37] Daniel: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

[00:00:40] Daniel: Hi, this is Daniel from Spacemakers. I'm a productivity coach and trainer, and we are here talking about how to say no for a greater yes.

[00:00:49] Daniel: We're gonna talk about the science of attention. We're gonna talk about the top and bottom down attentional systems. And I'm here with my good friend and fellow Spacemaker, Matt Bain.

[00:00:56] Matt: Hi Dan. Hey everyone.

[00:00:58] Daniel: Hey. And Matt, I had an interesting [00:01:00] experience yesterday. Uh. A very ordinary experience, but it made me think about today's topic.

[00:01:04] Daniel: I was in town, I was trying to get from A to B, and I was in a hurry to get to my next meeting. And I got to a traffic light and there were no cars around, but there were like five people on the other side of the traffic light, you know, waiting as good citizens should do. And I looked left and I looked right and I'm like, no, there's no cars.

[00:01:21] Daniel: And I just crossed the road. And what I noticed as I crossed is that all of those five people who had been patiently waiting for the traffic light to go green quickly looked at me and then just crossed the road and they jaywalked essentially just like me, and, and as I was, as I was walking I thought isn't that interesting that they shaped their decisions simply on a random stranger who they knew nothing about who could quite easily get away walk in front of a bus.

[00:01:45] Daniel: Yeah. And yet because I was willing to walk across the road, they decided that it was the right thing to do as well.

[00:01:50] Matt: Wow. You cut a commanding figure, Dan. People follow you.

[00:01:53] Daniel: That's right. Yep. Uh, but we're going to talk about the science of attention and how our top and [00:02:00] bottom attentional systems shape our decisions.

[00:02:02] Daniel: And then we're going to talk about the importance of saying no for a greater yes, for really reflecting on who we are in order to then shape our attention. Yep. Looking forward to it. We had a conversation about paying attention to people, knowing that, you know, building relationships is one of the things we need to spend more time on.

[00:02:21] Daniel: Yeah, that's it. Three people. Yeah. So the activity was to basically give undue attention or more attention than you would normally give to three people in your life who you care about. Uh, to write those names down and to actually do something that helps them feel like they're cared for or valued. Yes.

[00:02:36] Daniel: That's right. Did you do it? I did. I did.

[00:02:38] Matt: I did. Um, ideally we spoke about, um, going as far as putting specific times in your diary or calendar. I didn't quite hit those lofty heights. What I did, and I found it worked for me, I had the three names. So three people who I wanted to, uh, pay some attention to, I wrote them down in my diary every day until, um, until I found the time on a particular day to reach out and I could cross [00:03:00] them off and then do the remaining two.

[00:03:01] Matt: So, I had one person who I wanted to say thank you to. I had one person who I wanted to, um, not really want to, but I thought I should apologize to about something to say sorry for. So I did that. And the third person, I just wanted to offer some encouragement. I did it. I did it. Yeah, I did it. But again, I think for me, the secret sauce that time around was actually writing those names down.

[00:03:19] Matt: Um, Writing it down. So I got outta my head and, uh, yeah, it was captured.

[00:03:23] Daniel: Hey, one of the things I love about you is that you are just very good at making people feel appreciated, and you do that all the time anyway.

[00:03:31] Matt: Oh, thanks, Dan. Uh, I'm not very good at it. I'm a tasky guy, and so I found this activity a bit hard.

[00:03:36] Daniel: Okay. So my, my big ones is I, I wanted to, I've got three kids. I wanted to have some type of interaction with 'em that was meaningful, just a touch point at some point each day, you know, play five minutes of basketball or just. Something like that. Uh, I didn't do too badly at that, but the um, the other one was I wanted to go and see my neighbor who we spent heaps of time with each other building, uh, like some steps outdoors in a caravan area [00:04:00] a few months ago, but I haven't seen him for about a month and he got a job and stuff's happened and I've just thought I should really see him.

[00:04:06] Daniel: So I didn't create an action trigger in the sense of I didn't pick a time in a day, but I just expected that I would go and see him. And two days ago, I put the recycling bins out. And he just waved through the window and I think he said hi, and I said hi, and we had a quick chat, you know, from a distance.

[00:04:22] Daniel: Uh, but because my plan, I suppose, was, you know, he's an important person in my life, I want to give him attention. I'm like, okay, instead of going back to my computer, I knocked on his door, and, you know, we hung out for about 25 minutes. And he showed me his new car, and I told him about my dad passing away, and it was actually a good interaction.

[00:04:39] Daniel: But I realized that the intention of wanting to pay attention to someone allowed me to do that. to make a different decision in that moment when I'm not a spontaneous person. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. That's good. And the other thing that stood out, uh, is a bit random, but, um, a guy texted me who is probably more a colleague than a really close friend.

[00:04:58] Daniel: Uh, we've worked together on and off in [00:05:00] some different capacities. He works for a different organization. He texted me and said, look, would you like to come to our conference next week? And I texted back and said, oh, actually, you know, sorry, but my, my father's passed away recently and I'm really trying to

[00:05:13] Daniel: be careful about extra commitments. So I can't. But he texted back and said, Oh, I'm really sorry. Let me cook you a meal, uh, to make it easier for you. Right. And my immediate like internal thought was, oh no, I mean, like I haven't just had a baby and no one's like sick in my family. Uh, you know, so I immediately thought that was unnecessary essentially, but I reflected on the fact that I was trying to give attention to people.

[00:05:37] Daniel: And I thought, you know what, if someone is giving attention to me and offering me an act of kindness, especially when I don't deserve it, I should damn well say yes. You know, um, and probably part of paying attention to other people is letting them pay attention to you. So that came out of as well. And so I said yes, instead of no.

[00:05:55] Daniel: And honestly, life has been hard and we haven't been doing so well. And so we got a meal [00:06:00] for two days.

[00:06:00] Matt: Yeah. I imagine that must've been encouraging.

[00:06:01] Daniel: It was super encouraging. Yeah.

[00:06:12] Daniel: So, let's move on and we'll talk about the science of attention and how to manage our bottom and top down attentional systems. Why don't you lead us off?

[00:06:22] Matt: Sure. So, we'll be referring to, um, a few different authors works here, and I want to start off with, uh, Winifred Gallagher. So, in her book, Wrapped, she does this really neat job of distinguishing between, uh, the are the two types of attentional systems.

[00:06:35] Matt: So she breaks them down into top down and bottoms up. And the bottom up attentional system is largely one that is kind of, it's a, it's a hangover, if you like, a necessary hangover of our evolutionary past. So people have also talked about this as being our orienting response. So when we find ourselves in an environment where there is new novel stimulation.[00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Matt: That could both be risky or perhaps give us some potential rewards. We instinctively, so involuntarily, we are drawn to that. Okay. So that's just how we built as humans again, cause that helped us survive and thrive many, many thousands of years ago. So that's the bottom up stuff. So it's the stuff that's just going to capture your attention.

[00:07:18] Matt: It's usually going to be novel. It's going to be bright. It's going to be flashy. Again, it's going to be risk or potential reward.

[00:07:24] Daniel: Yeah. I remember reading the book and she talked about, you know. Yeah, birdwatching and you suddenly automatically see the colorful birds. I mean, in my situation, it's probably more, hey, there's the chocolate or there's, there's that kind of flashy, uh, I don't know, dopamine inducing, uh, you know, scrolled video or something like that.

[00:07:40] Daniel: But basically the bottom up system is kind of like fight and flight and freeze. Is that right? Where it's that raw, you know, inner kind of lizard brain part of ourselves that just either wants to kind of mate and reproduce or eat or find food or forage or protect itself from like, I don't know, a tiger.

[00:07:57] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. So it's all about helping us [00:08:00] iron ourselves in a temporary, at least, unfamiliar context with risks and potential rewards.

[00:08:07] Daniel: Yeah. And it's important because if we didn't have bottom up attention. If, if our bottom up attentional system wasn't at play well, we might actually fall off a cliff , not jump away from a bus or, uh, you know, I don't know, dodge, that piano that just fell from the sky.

[00:08:23] Daniel: That's a good example. Yeah, I was trying to think of, uh, more modern day examples, but, okay. Perfect. So, okay, so that's the bottom. That's the bottom up. Okay. So talk about the top. Yeah.

[00:08:30] Matt: So the top down. So this is usually associated with, um, I guess probably more, you know, frontal cortex goal oriented behavior.

[00:08:37] Matt: So this is the type of attention that is more under our direct specific control. So usually it's tied up with values, it's tied up with goals. It's a conscious effort, conscious focus. This is usually compared to a muscle if you like. So it's not literally a muscle, but it's like a muscle in the sense that it's something that you can exercise.

[00:08:55] Matt: And some people that have just like a natural vulnerability. to be able to exercise this more [00:09:00] naturally than others, but it can be developed. The thing seems to be that the more that you focus intently. So again, towards some goal or end. So the more that you're kind of employing your top down system, then eventually it'll burn out if you like.

[00:09:16] Matt: So it'll start to frazzle.

[00:09:17] Daniel: Oh, okay. So like a muscle, like a muscle ability to regulate your bottom up system. Yeah. So use your top down prefrontal cortex or executive functioning mind to, to somehow say, hey, limbic system, I don't want to eat that chocolate, or I don't want to. Yeah. Uh, I dunno, sit under that piano as you, for example,

[00:09:34] Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the more you regulate your bottom up system, the, the more tied you get.

[00:09:39] Matt: Yeah, that's right. So the more that, the more that you employ the top down system. Yeah. The tighter eventually you'll become. So it's a limited resource. It is. It is. And again, like the amount of that resource that you start off with could be different from how much I start off with.

[00:09:51] Daniel: Okay. So this is what you're saying. There are two attentional systems. Essentially, this is the science of how we concentrate and focus. Uh, there's the bottom up [00:10:00] attentional system, which tends to focus intently and automatically or involuntarily on whatever happens to pop in that is novel or interesting.

[00:10:10] Daniel: Uh, and that probably relates to survival And, um, protection. And then you have the top down attentional system, which essentially is, uh, the mature adult system that we develop over time, where we choose not to react or respond to our stimuli, which is the bottom up system, but we choose to actually react,

[00:10:30] Daniel: focus and concentrate, delay gratification, or to make choices based on our deeper values, our goals and our calling. Yes. Yeah. So that's her take on those two systems, which is really, really good to know. Okay. So how does that relate to what we've been talking about, which is, you know, we're talking about, we're living in an attention economy.

[00:10:49] Daniel: We're practicing the internet a lot. We're increasingly distracted where we can't watch movies anymore and where we can't sit in silence where our inattention is impacting our relationships, our [00:11:00] productivity, uh, and our ability to do things that really matter in our life, right? This is what we're talking about.

[00:11:04] Daniel: So how do we retrain that and how does this theory of bottom up and top down attention systems or the science, I'm sorry, of these things, how does that help us in our everyday lives?

[00:11:15] Matt: Okay, that's a lot of small questions. Before I dive into trying to answer it, just let me briefly mention this book that I found really helpful on this topic.

[00:11:25] Matt: So this is called The World Beyond Your Head by a guy called Matthew B Crawford. I believe he's a political scientist and also vintage motorcycle mechanic.

[00:11:32] Daniel: I haven't read it actually. Yeah. I'm curious.

[00:11:35] Matt: You may have heard of his the first book was um, Shot Glass of Soulcraft which they put him on the map.

[00:11:41] Matt: He's got like lots of big ideas, and this is pretty philosophically, uh, dense. But some of the, uh, the highlights, the, um, the takeaways, they kind of go back to your, your day to day example. He points out that attention, particularly the top down sort is a valuable resource because it's rare and it's scarce.

[00:11:58] Matt: So there's that. [00:12:00] And attention overall is also like a relatively rare and valuable resource. But the problem is particularly when it comes to bottom up stimulation, it is so easily manipulated. So my bottom up attention is very, very easily caught and trapped if you like. And uh, because all it takes, it usually is something that's novel.

[00:12:21] Matt: That's kind of immediately stimulating. will kind of play in my physiology and grab that attention. So noises, lights, you know, sounds, even smells. So he gives us this great example, uh, back in 2015 in a commuter train in South Korea, just before the train got to a stop that had a Dunkin Donuts at it, right?

[00:12:41] Matt: Even if I was on that train and I was trying to drown out the billboards, the flashing lights, if I had earbuds I was wearing sunglasses. I was reading a book. Even if I thought I had complete control of my attention, then just before you arrive at the station, they piped a scent, like a mist, a vapor through the cabin that [00:13:00] was a mixture of coffee and donuts.

[00:13:02] Matt: And then lo and behold, it pulls up next to a stop where there's a Dunkin Donuts. Yeah. So that's a great example of, again, using our senses. Senses our basic physiology to capture and grab our bottoms up attention.

[00:13:13] Daniel: So what you're saying here is that we're trying to employ our top down attentional system in order to make sure, you know, we're not eating donuts, we're focusing on whatever we're trying to read on the, on the train.

[00:13:25] Daniel: Yeah. And, and having kind of habits that align with our value system. Mm-Hmm. But then simply the nature of our environment and the deliberate engineering of our environment makes me, you know, hey, how come I'm eating a doughnut and why have I ordered a coffee when I'm meant to be kind of caffeine free this week?

[00:13:43] Matt: Yeah, that's right. Because he makes a link between attention, both top down and bottom up, and self regulation or self control. Okay. Okay. So you like everyone's heard of that famous now marshmallow experiment?

[00:13:56] Daniel: Probably but go for it again. Do you want to explain it briefly?

[00:13:59] Matt: Okay. Okay. Okay. I'll do my best.

[00:13:59] Matt: Yeah. [00:14:00] So my, and feel free to like to chip in if I'm a bit hazy on some of the details, but involve, I've, I've never read the study, but I've heard it from like hundreds of people. So a bunch of children, uh, were put in a room and the, um, the people running the experiment said like, here's, here's a marshmallow, right?

[00:14:15] Matt: So if here's a marshmallow and what we want you to do is sit in this room where there's no other stimulation. And leave it alone. I think it was for 15 minutes. Okay. And if you can leave it alone for 15 minutes, then you'll get another one at the end of the 15 minutes. Right. So it's like double or it's nothing because you can eat the marshmallow whenever you want to.

[00:14:30] Daniel: Yeah. So one or you get one or you get double. Yeah.

[00:14:32] Matt: Double. Yeah. With a delay. Yeah. Yeah. And then people like drought long term consequences when they followed the, um, uh, the kids over life and saw how they succeeded in different areas. Right.

[00:14:42] Daniel: Yeah, so the kids who had the ability to self regulate or to delay gratification and eat the marshmallow in 15 minutes, so double, double, you know, double their sugar when, uh, they ended up having better outcomes in life in the sense of, you know, more likely [00:15:00] to succeed in jobs, relationships and other areas that are classically related to, you know, healthy functioning humanity.

[00:15:07] Matt: So most of the time, at least in the popular press, the interpretation seems to be drawn, well, this just shows the importance of self control or self discipline. Yeah. Whereas Crawford makes the point that, uh, the more accurate take on that is that the kids who managed to defer the gratification and not take the marshmallow in the 15 minutes they did as in, so they had better self regulation.

[00:15:28] Matt: They did a better job diverting their attention away from the doughnut. They were in control of their top down attention.

[00:15:36] Daniel: Okay, so their bottom up system was going, yum, I've eaten them before. You know, history of kind of roasting them on a fire. Uh, I can't think about the future, not even 15 minutes into the future.

[00:15:46] Daniel: I want it now. Right. So bottom up.

[00:15:48] Matt: Yeah. Okay. So they'd either be envisioning the future rewards. That's one thing they could do. Or others. It was like literally singing songs or making up games. Something as relatively menial as that, something just like that, it [00:16:00] took, diverted the attention away from the marshmallow.

[00:16:02] Matt: Okay. And this is, this is, this is important. Right. Because if there is a link, which this guy suggests, Crawford suggests, between self regulation and the ability to be able to deploy your attention, particularly top down. Uh, where you want it to go, right? So, so there's a link between those two things. So the more I can choose where I focus my attention, the more self regulation slash self discipline I'll have, then the better it's going to set me up for the hard realities of the world.

[00:16:28] Matt: So if I want to become a good guitarist, for example, I need to practice.

[00:16:32] Daniel: I like how you're pointing to me as if I'm a good guitarist, but I played once in like a year, but anyway, keep going.

[00:16:38] Matt: I believe in your eyes. So, yeah, so if I want to become, um, if I wanted to say like get my master's in something, it's going to mean studying.

[00:16:45] Matt: Yeah. If I want to become a mechanic, it means like undergoing some kind of, you know, difficult apprenticeship. And so all those things will require some self discipline on my part, and self regulation. So the more that I've managed to successfully, again, orient my attention where I want it to [00:17:00] go, the greater likelihood of succeeding in that venture.

[00:17:02] Matt: Yeah. Okay. If my attention, if my ability to steer my attention where I think it, where, um, where I want it to go, if that's really depleted and if my self regulation, self discipline is also fairly low as a result of that, then it leaves me just kind of being pulled and pushed around by anything that grabs the bottom up.

[00:17:22] Daniel: So, I mean, we've talked about big things like, you know, how do I get out of debt or how do I make a decision about, you know, uh, what degree I finish, but it's much more every day than that from what I'm seeing. And this is why we're struggling with our focus now because we live in an attention economy, right?

[00:17:36] Daniel: Where our environment is shaped, particularly our digital environment is shaped to literally target the heartstrings of the bottom up attentional system. And as a result, this is why we're struggling with, let's say, an hour of concentrated work in the workplace when it's my most important task, as opposed to, hey, let's just answer Teams notifications and emails constantly and just feed that bottom up system.

[00:17:57] Daniel: Is that, is that where we're heading?

[00:17:58] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I [00:18:00] think so. And on that, um, plenty of people have also pointed out that it's not just, it's not just, I guess, like the kind of, um, of simulation that's on offer anymore that can work on our bottom up system. Right. Yeah. It's also just the sheer volume of it. So almost wherever you go now, you will be bombarded by something that will be kind of, again, tugging on your bottom up attentional system.

[00:18:21] Matt: And that just goes through the roof when you bring in devices and living in a digital age.

[00:18:24] Daniel: Oh, in my book, I wrote a story about when I was watching my young child play soccer. Look, it's great. I enjoy the experience and I encourage our kids to be outdoors and active. But in reality, it's Tassie, it's winter and I'm outdoors in the freezing cold and watching a game where my little kids are spending more time doing cartwheels than actually kicking the soccer ball.

[00:18:47] Daniel: So it wasn't an overly enjoyable experience. But what I noticed is. If I had my phone on me, I would be constantly thinking I shouldn't be one of those parents that pulls out my phone, but I would really like to check the news or scan my email [00:19:00] and even though I didn't do that most of the time because I wanted to look like I was present, my attention was actually focused on my pocket and this so, I was actually, uh, using my top down attentional system and, and wearing down my concentration muscles by not just reaching for my phone.

[00:19:19] Daniel: Yes. Uh, and so this is that kind of ubiquitous nature of technology, isn't it? Yes. Where, wherever you are. There are choices, even if you're disciplined enough to not reach into your pocket.

[00:19:28] Matt: That's right. So that speaks to the power of environment and context. And he gives a great example in the book against maybe our data now, because it was 2015, uh, he went from, um, the economy class lounge in, uh, Charles de Gaulle airport, walking through that.

[00:19:43] Matt: And again, screens, advertisements, billboards, noises everywhere. And then he slipped into the business class lounge and he said like the doors, the sliding doors shut behind him. And there was silence. No screens, no piped advertisements, just the sound he writes of like beautiful silver [00:20:00] spoons clinking around fine China.

[00:20:03] Matt: That was business class. People who have the money and the means actually earn the silence and the right, he says not to be addressed, not to be addressed because every time somebody is trying to like grab your bottom up attentional system, it's addressing you. It's trying to capture your attention.

[00:20:19] Daniel: Well, and I think it's probably, it's the new classes and this is like, there's not research behind this.

[00:20:23] Daniel: I'm guessing. Okay. But what I do hear in the conversations when I coach people or when I spend time with community groups is that low socioeconomic groups aren't really talking about this. Like we're just trying to, um, people are just surviving. They're just trying to pay the rent and eat food. Um, Okay.

[00:20:37] Daniel: But their kids, you know, when I talk to parents, for example, I just open some of the screens and good luck. I hope it doesn't damage them. They don't even think about that necessarily, uh, for good reasons. They're just trying to survive, right? Um, but then it's the upper class and upper middle class parents who are thinking, oh, actually, let's talk about screen time.

[00:20:53] Daniel: Let's talk about the intentional use of the internet. Let's talk about filtering and how we might somehow curate our children's attention without necessarily [00:21:00] knowing all the science so that they become healthier, wholehearted adults who ride bikes and climb trees. They don't just spend all their time on a PS5.

[00:21:07] Daniel: And so I'm seeing kind of a class difference in the conversation as well, that you have to be wealthy in order to deliberately put guardrails in place to overcome poverty, the environment of attention setting engineering.

[00:21:20] Matt: Yeah. So that's a good segue into guardrails. And this is like the last point that I'll draw out from Crawford's work here.

[00:21:27] Matt: He talks about the fact again, now more than ever, the amount of potential stimulation and options is almost like boundless compared to before. So just, so in terms of stuff that is vying for my attention, it just, it is so vast compared to years gone by. There's that. So he said, you've got all these different options up here.

[00:21:45] Matt: And then, um, down the bottom here, you've got the individual. So it's the individual who's usually encouraged to, you know, to, um, believe they have autonomy, they have complete freedom. Having complete freedom and autonomy means you get to choose from [00:22:00] this vast array of different choices and different things that are calling for your attention.

[00:22:06] Matt: He says that's actually wearing and too much because it's like we just get exhausted by these vast amount of options and a lot of them have been put together by really well engineered, well funded, well thought out attention merchants. So they know how to play on our bottom up attentional system. And secondly, he'd argue that.

[00:22:23] Matt: In days gone by, when it came to deciding how you're going to pay, how you're going to spend your attention, what you're going to spend your attention on, that how you had the guidance, an individual had the guidance of usually some kind of mediating middle institution. So it could be like say family, it could be a sports club, someone else would help you, kind of guide you.

[00:22:45] Matt: around that really difficult process of what are you going to spend your precious attention on. They were going to give you guidance and support around working out your why, your bigger why.

[00:22:54] Daniel: So on the one hand, now we've got likes, we've got notifications, we've got music wherever we go, we've [00:23:00] got flashing colors and, and kind of moving billboards, all that kind of stuff.

[00:23:04] Daniel: So, so you're saying wherever we go, uh, we're having to use our top down attentional system to try to just stop us going hyperactive, right? Yeah. Uh, which is exhausting, and a lot of us don't even know how to do it. Um, and we've lost the community factor that helps us have a sense of normality and outside of that.

[00:23:24] Daniel: So the Rotary clubs, the sports clubs, uh, extended families, scouts, church, extended family, like it's all kind of come crashing down since like the late 90s, early 2000s. And now we have this individualized self that connects with the global community on social media, but we actually don't know our neighbor.

[00:23:39] Daniel: And so you take those two factors, a lack of in person community where people are actually calling your bluff and actually asking questions and showing you what it might look like to live in relationships, and you have this massive increase of smells in the subway, which are trying to get you to buy coffee and doughnuts and put those together.

[00:23:59] Daniel: And that's [00:24:00] part of the reason why we're fracturing our attentions.

[00:24:02] Matt: Yes. Right. So with the help of community and people who you trust, um, and some self reflection, um, all that kind of stuff, you'll help discover, I think, like a stronger why or a yes that will better motivate and inform long term sustained attention towards the goal that you seek.

[00:24:20] Daniel: So look, in some ways this is so important, but it can be a bit depressing. I mean, I, I love, um, the work of Johan Hari as well. He wrote a great book called Stolen Focus, uh, which was really about why we can't concentrate, but he looked at it less from an individual lens, which we're probably looking at more Podcast series and looked at it, looking at broad sociological factors and political factors, which I think is really, really important.

[00:24:42] Daniel: Uh, and this is a quote that I think summarizes his overarching book. He said, the truth is you are living in a system that is pouring acid on your attention every day. And then you're being told to blame yourself and to fiddle with your own habits while the world's attention burns. That's vivid. [00:25:00] It's vivid.

[00:25:00] Daniel: It's a strong language. But essentially I think it summarizes Johan Hari's book that the individual will find it very, very hard to manage their attention in an economy which is driven by taking that attention away. His big argument is that. While social media companies and large companies like Google, as long as they continue to have a business model, which basically rewards us to be distracted and spend a lot of time eyeballing their products, we won't be able to recapture our attention.

[00:25:32] Daniel: Okay. I think it's important that we don't get too down on ourselves and we don't say, Oh, I'm so unfocused. Oh, I can't concentrate. You know, well, woe is me or, or just to, to have just negative self talk because you're struggling because the reality is we're all struggling and we are all in an environment which is designed to make us struggle with concentration and focus.

[00:25:51] Daniel: Uh, where I would probably differ from my thinking around Johan Hari's kind of leaves us there. It's like, unless the system changes, unless the politics changes, [00:26:00] we're kind of all stuffed. And I just, I found that a little bit depressing and I, I haven't seen that to be true in my experience. I think it's very, very hard not to buy the doughnuts when you're on that subway, but it's not impossible, particularly if you have awareness, if you have community, and if you put habits and safeguards in place.

[00:26:19] Daniel: Or maybe you'll buy the donuts less regularly, but you'll still spend most of your time eating the things that really matter. So I do believe that individually we can do something about this, particularly when we rally together, and particularly when we rally together and create a better world. At least local systems in workplaces, in neighborhoods, in families that help us concentrate more.

[00:26:38] Daniel: And that's why we're passionate about helping you practice new ways of thinking. I think you've summed it up well. Yes. So it's hard. It's difficult. We shouldn't be down on ourselves because we are living in an economy which is constantly distracting, but there's hope. So, with that in mind, why don't we pause for a moment and we'll have a little bit of space.

[00:26:57] Daniel: Just have a think about the [00:27:00] conversation that Matt and I have had so far about the science of attention, about the bottom and top down attentional systems, uh, and the environment we find ourselves in. You know, what stands out to you as a challenge, uh, but what stands out to you as something that you can do positively about it as well.

[00:27:15] Daniel: We'll be back in a minute.[00:28:00]

[00:28:01] Daniel: Hey, well done. You had some more space. I hope you're getting trained by us now in this, uh, practice of 30 seconds of quiet. Thanks so much. But we need to get practical because, you know, it's one thing to realize that actually it's very hard to capture our attention because so many things are stimulating our bottom up system and we need to be able to concentrate.

[00:28:19] Daniel: At the same time, we have to do something about it, okay? And so, so far, we've given people three key activities. The first one was about going outside and spending time, you know, in silence and just reflecting and thinking and paying attention. So, I suppose that's about silence and reflection. We, uh, did an activity about uh, doing a high quality leisure activity.

[00:28:40] Daniel: That's right. Disconnected. Disconnected. Yeah. Which is about adding something meaningful to your life. Uh, and we've talked about, uh, investing in relationships and paying attention to people who matter in your life. Yeah.

[00:28:49] Matt: That's it.

[00:28:50] Daniel: Yeah. Uh, and I, I think a bit about the, uh, that old movie. Yeah. The Karate Kid.

[00:28:55] Daniel: I love it. You know, Daniel's son. I'm a Daniel. Uh, and how, you know, Mr. Miyagi gave [00:29:00] him wax on and wax off and paint the fence and all these activities. And he had no idea what he was doing. He thought he was simply kind of doing backyard jobs for Mr. Miyagi. I was like going to go with child labor, but sure.

[00:29:11] Daniel: Yeah, yeah, I know, child labor. All right. But, uh, I feel like we've been doing the same because we actually have a plan for where we want to get you. We did promise at the start of this podcast series that we want to help actually not just talk about attention, but get you to the point where you can actually have sustained attention or at least significantly improve the quality of your life.

[00:29:30] Daniel: by increasing your attention muscles. And that won't happen just with random activities. But those three activities about silence and reflection, about adding quality activities into your life in line with your values, and also investing in key relationships. They're good tasters for what's to come. But I thought now it's time for us to unveil the actual framework that we want you to work by.

[00:29:54] Daniel: Uh, a bit like the unveiling of a Ha Ha Ha Ha in the movie. Uh, [00:30:00] yeah, you'd have to see the YouTube. I did it perfectly. You didn't see that coming. Uh, okay, so, uh, there are three things that we think you need to recap your attention. Okay, the first one is to detect your greater yes. Right? So, we heard about this when we talked with Dr.

[00:30:15] Daniel: Julia Verdouw about the idea that, uh, we can shape our top down attentional systems and focus on what matters, but you have to know what matters. So, I would say productivity requires a context. If you don't know what you're saying yes to, what your goals are, and what you want to achieve in life, well then, anyone who invites you to a meeting or a project or an activity is a yes because you don't have a greater context.

[00:30:39] Daniel: The same is true in a more broad sense with your life. If you don't know what really matters to you, whether it be family, relationships, legacy type of projects, deeper values, well then of course you're just going to let anyone who's vying for your bottom up attention to capture it because you're not clear about what you want to redirect it to.

[00:30:58] Matt: Well, that sounds great, Dan. That's number [00:31:00] one. But are you telling me that, you know, if I just believe hard enough, I can do whatever I want and become whoever I want to be?

[00:31:06] Daniel: You just have to follow your heart, actually, Matt, and that should solve everything. No, so it starts with having a sense of what your greater yes is, to detect life's meaning, as Viktor Frankl once said.

[00:31:15] Daniel: The second thing, though, is to, uh, You've got to reduce your distractions. Okay. You actually have to do your best to minimize the distracting environment in which we find ourselves and particularly digital distractions. So that may be, and we'll talk about this in future episodes, that may involve turning your smartphone into more of a dumb phone.

[00:31:32] Daniel: Uh, it may be turning off notifications. It may be shaping your habits and practices so that you're less inclined to be, uh, distracted with noise and interruptions. Uh, if you don't manage your external environment. Both digitally and physically, or then even if you want to live out your values, it's going to be very difficult because of that conundrum between the top and bottom down intentional systems.

[00:31:56] Daniel: Yes. Is that what you meant by that somewhat snarky comment?

[00:31:59] Matt: No, [00:32:00] actually, I meant something different. I meant something different. Um, I meant that in terms of identifying values, goals, directions in life. We're not saying that, um, we're not being so naive or so idealistic to believe that we're blank canvases.

[00:32:16] Matt: You know what I mean? That can just, that we're completely free if you like, that we have the power to be whoever we want to be. Because again, I think that's a bit simplistic. We want to realize that when it comes to identifying this stuff, much like that Victor Frankel quote said, you're tapping into something that to some degree is already a pre existing.

[00:32:33] Matt: You're discovering it perhaps more than creating it. So we've all got temperaments, we've all got personality types and traits, we've all got backgrounds, we've got families of origin, we've got different strengths and weaknesses. So I think it's just important to name up at the front when it comes to trying to articulate this stuff and discover it.

[00:32:50] Matt: It's good just to be grounded in realism to know you're coming from somewhere. You're embodied. You're situated in a context. Yeah.

[00:32:58] Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. So we're not a blank canvas. [00:33:00] That's a very important point. And it's not that you're just picking a goal and then suddenly life is going to get better. Yeah. There's a bit of realism in that.

[00:33:06] Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. No, I really appreciate your insights. know how much I appreciate you, Matt. Uh, okay. So, so the first one was to detect a greater yes. The second one was to reduce digital distractions, and the third one was to fill the void, meaning that once you reduce distractions and you know what you want to achieve, well, then you actually need to habituate the things that matter most.

[00:33:29] Daniel: And this is where the high quality leisure activities might come in, for example.

[00:33:33] Matt: Yeah, that's right.

[00:33:33] Daniel: And, and, and the community. And the community. Yeah. So, you know, what relationships do I want to invest in as a regular habitual activity? Uh, what, what leisure activities do I want to focus on? Uh, how do I want to work so that I

[00:33:47] Daniel: produce my best work and contribute in a meaningful way. Uh, so how do we take those experiments, so to speak, that we've given a go at and then make them our habits. Put those three things in place. I know what I want to [00:34:00] achieve or who I want to be, uh, at least, you know, at a conceptual level, I'm actively reducing the digital distractions and interruptions in my life.

[00:34:08] Daniel: And then I'm habituating one or two things in order to practice focusing and attaining and attending to what really matters. I think if people follow that framework, they'll end up in a better place.

[00:34:18] Matt: Yeah, that sounds great. Tell me, is this once and done?

[00:34:21] Daniel: No, and it's forever. Like, I mean, the reality is we're going to continue living in an economy that draws our attention.

[00:34:27] Daniel: So it requires awareness, a change in paradigm, essentially, a change in mindset and then a change in habits and a continual reassessment of that. And even what we care about, like we'll talk about the challenge in a second, but if you reflect on you know, what do I want to be known for in 5, 10, 20 years?

[00:34:42] Daniel: Well, that will probably change over time. It certainly has in my life. Yeah. Uh, there have been times where I've been very clear about what I thought my life would be. Mm hmm. And that's been thrown upside down. Yeah. And pulled inside out. And then I've realized actually, uh, that was a shadow of what it was meant to be, but it was right for that period of time.

[00:34:59] Daniel: And then [00:35:00] I've reassessed and re-dreamed for the future. Yeah. So it changes based on life circumstances. Yeah. I like that. But we also need to be intentional. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because a lot of us walk through life just going from A to B to C without ever really stopping to plan who we want to be, what are our values, what type of character traits do I want to mature and grow in, and how do I want to conduct myself over time.

[00:35:22] Daniel: Even if you're not looking at an outcome, you're looking at a process. But, but it's still so important to be intentional in how we shape our time and how we shape our attention. Because if we don't do that, well then the void will be filled with other people, uh, and other things.

[00:35:39] Matt: That's good. If we aren't directing our attention, someone else is.

[00:35:41] Daniel: Yeah. So, our challenge this week is actually significantly higher bar compared to the three activities we've given you on previous weeks. Uh, and it's really about starting at that step one, which is reflecting on what your greater yes is. Uh, I like the analogy that Michael Hyatt gives actually, uh, in [00:36:00] his book, Living Forward, where he says that, you know, if we're going to go on a holiday, for example, you would, and that's the first thing you do is you work out where are you going and when you know where you're going, well, that'll determine your budget, where you stay, how much time you spend, what you wear, uh, but the destination matters.

[00:36:17] Daniel: And I think the same is true with our own life. Okay. So if we want to plan our life forward, we need to think about, well, what is the destination we want to head to and therefore how can that shape what we pay attention to. And so, what I'd like you to do is one of two options, okay? Option one is to do a fairly short term kind of visioning exercise, uh, which is about zooming forward and then reflecting back

[00:36:41] Daniel: in terms of five years. The other one is to zoom forward a lot further towards the end of your life. Let's say your 80th or 90th year old birthday. Uh, some people like to talk about writing their eulogies and I've done that exercise in the past, but I find 80 or 90 kind of works and it's a bit more positive.

[00:36:57] Daniel: But, uh, think about the, you're near the end of your life. [00:37:00] And you've got friends and family who are celebrating your life and talking about your achievements, describing your character and explaining the life you've lived and the choices you've made. Uh, how might you describe your future self and then reflect back to allow it to shape how you do things day by day and what you might pay attention to now.

[00:37:17] Daniel: Yeah, that's good. We've got some questions. Uh, so if you want to do the five year projection. The questions are really about lifestyle choices, and thinking about the future you want to live just in the next season. So that would be questions like where have you been living? How would you describe the quality of your relationships?

[00:37:35] Daniel: How would you assess your physical, emotional, relational and spiritual health in five years? What contributions to society are you proud of? What has been the intensity of your job over the last season? How much control have you maintained over your schedule? How have you managed your work life balance?

[00:37:53] Daniel: What stands out as the best achievement in your, you know, recent career in work and [00:38:00] also, you know, your, your broader life? Uh, what has been consistently motivating to get you up each morning and, uh, in hindsight, what do you wish you had done more or less of? There's lots of questions. You don't have to answer them all.

[00:38:11] Daniel: But if you're interested, uh, download our PDF and we've got those questions and a set of activities to help you get there. So that's one, one option. The second option is the reflect from the end of your life. Let's say your 80th or 90th birthday. And again, I've got 10 questions. I'll read them out. I think as well.

[00:38:30] Daniel: But again, you'll, you'll want to reflect on these over time. Uh, what qualities and character traits are you celebrated for? Which values have you consistently embodied? What goals or projects stand out as your significant achievements? In what relationships have you invested deeply and how have they flourished?

[00:38:48] Daniel: What pivotal decisions can you identify that steered you towards fulfillment? How have your passions and dreams evolved over the years? And what new pursuits did you embrace along the way? Who are the [00:39:00] people you have forgiven and how has this shaped your life? What are the most important lessons you've learned along your journey?

[00:39:06] Daniel: How have you changed over the years? And the 10th question, who or what have you loved most deeply? So again, you wouldn't have to answer all those questions, but the purpose of this, this zooming forward and then reflecting back activity is to, to somehow think about the person you would like to be in the next five years and or the next 80 years.

[00:39:26] Daniel: And then maybe even write a summary statement of two or three or four lines to describe the texture of what you see and then allow that to start to shape how you build your habits, how you remove. Yeah,

[00:39:47] Matt: I have, I've actually, I got that Michael Hyatt book, yeah, Living Forward, and I went through his exercise that was similar, and it was useful, but it was also a little bit confronting as well.

[00:39:56] Matt: Yeah. Because, you know, these exercises are so useful and [00:40:00] rewarding. And they're partly, I think, useful and rewarding because they do kind of highlight or bring you to confront the fact that you'll see the gap between the current reality and the end.

[00:40:12] Daniel: Yeah.

[00:40:13] Matt: But that's some useful hard knowledge. Definitely.

[00:40:15] Daniel: And the aim isn't to change everything and it's not to get down on yourself. But I think if we don't have a preferred future, then, it's very hard to get there. Yeah. Uh, if you don't know what mountain you want to climb, well then how are you going to make steps to climb it? Particularly when you've got so many forces around us that are vying for our attention and drawing us away from what is most likely that desired future.

[00:40:34] Daniel: Yes. Yep. So, um, so there are two activities. Uh, so what I want you to do in the next, well what we would love all of you to do in the next week is not necessarily do that activity, but to find a time in your calendar, ideally in the next two weeks if you can, but potentially longer than that, and actually put it down in your calendar.

[00:40:53] Daniel: Do it, to do that activity. To choose, will I do the five year reflection or the 80 year reflection or both? [00:41:00] Uh, you know, I don't think you need a whole day just to do that part of the activity, that two hours of your time. Yes. You could give this a red hot go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would that be fair to say?

[00:41:08] Matt: Oh yeah, like definitely.

[00:41:09] Matt: And to make it even more valuable perhaps and useful, if you can, I'd be encouraging people to do it alongside a trusted person, someone who loves you, who knows you, who can give you some insights into you.

[00:41:23] Daniel: Yeah, either do it with them, like I've done this in the past with a different activity with my wife.

[00:41:27] Daniel: Yep. Or to sit down for two hours, do the 80 year reflection, write down a paragraph of what stands out to you and then talk about it with a significant person in your life. So that you can get their feedback and actually start to get some commitments around what it means for you and what it looks like.

[00:41:43] Daniel: So that's what we'd love you to do. We're going to give you two weeks to do this activity because we know it's a difficult activity to do. We'll reinforce it next week with some extra information. But essentially we want you to book time in your calendar. I'd love you to download the PDF and the instructions and the guides.

[00:41:57] Daniel: If you go to spacemakers.au [00:42:00] forward slash life plan. So that's spacemakers.au forward slash life plan and that's also in the show notes. You'll be able to download those questions and I suppose an activity to guide you through this. Uh, the other thing I've included if you sign up is a chapter of my book because I have a different activity in my book.

[00:42:18] Daniel: We've talked about zooming forward to reflect back. But in my book, I talk about a sticky note exercise. Uh, this is the book Spacemaker, where you zoom back and reflect on your life as a whole in order to work out what your values are now so you can project forward. That's a great one. It's a great one.

[00:42:33] Daniel: And I think I would say start with the simple-ish five to 80 year reflection, but there's information in my chapter and step by step instructions that'll be included if you want to do the third activity as well. Yeah. Depending on kind of how much you feel you really need to focus on your broader vision for life.

[00:42:52] Daniel: There are times where it's appropriate to really think deeply about where you're heading. There's times where it's actually a distraction and you just have to get on with the everyday stuff that [00:43:00] you've got today. Uh, but I think everyone needs some type of pause every now and then to lift their head.

[00:43:05] Daniel: and reflect on the future. So that's our activity. I'd love you to give it a go. Email us at [email protected] if you have questions or if you have reflections so that we can get a sense of how you're progressing, and then over the next five episodes as we head towards the, the finish of this series.

[00:43:25] Daniel: We'll be reinforcing this idea of detecting your greater yes by having a sense of who you are and what you want to achieve. Uh, we'll be focusing on activities to help you reduce distractions in very practical ways. And then talking about how do you fill the void by building one or two small habits that lead you in the direction of life that you really want to lead.

[00:43:43] Matt: Yeah, that's great. We're halfway there. We're halfway there.

[00:43:45] Daniel: Halfway there. Amazing. Wow. Well, thank you so much for being part of the Spacemakers journey. Uh, as you can tell, we're lifting the bar on, you know, what it might look like to live a focused, concentrated, meaningful life. Uh, but it's really worth it.[00:44:00]

[00:44:00] Daniel: And we hope that you've learned something that's meaningful and helpful about the science of attention. Uh, as you get on with your everyday life, pay attention to whether your bottom up system is driving your, or when your top down attentional system is shaping your behaviours. Uh, and of course, spend a bit of time in the next week or two thinking about what you truly value and what it might look like to shape your life around a greater yes.

[00:44:21] Matt: Thanks Dan.

[00:44:23] Daniel: Thanks everyone. Until next week, make space.

[00:44:27] Daniel: The Space Makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

[00:44:30] Daniel: A special thanks to our sponsor, Bulk Nutrients. Proudly making quality supplements more affordable right here in Tasmania. You can enjoy a 5 percent discount on protein powders and health supplements at bulknutrients.com.au. Just enter the coupon code SPACEMAKERS for a discount on orders over $45.

[00:44:53] Daniel: If you'd like to support this podcast, there are plenty of ways you can do so. Share an episode with a friend, leave a review, [00:45:00] or subscribe to our blog post at spacemakers.au. Until next time, make space.