DANIEL SIH: [00:00] Hey there, Spacemakers. I'm Daniel Sih, here with my good friend and co-host, Matt Bain. Welcome to the fourth season of The Spacemakers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life.

NARRATOR: This is The Spacemakers.

DANIEL SIH: This season, we go deeper, challenging our constant self-improvement culture and what it's doing to us. It's a podcast designed to help you step off the busy treadmill, let go of the constant need for more, and make space for a life that is truly enough.

[00:33] This episode is sponsored by The Spacemakers Dojo, an online community to help you slow down, think deeply, and improve your time management skills. For a limited time, new members can get 12 months for the price of 6 with the code podcast 25. Just visit spacemakers.au forward slash dojo.

NARRATOR: [00:53] The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL SIH: [01:02] Hi everyone, welcome back to The Spacemakers podcast, a podcast to help you make space for an intentional and meaningful life. My name's Daniel Sih and I want to ask you a question to begin this episode. Do you ever feel like, no matter how much you do, it's never quite enough? You know, you work harder, you set goals, you read that book, you do the thing, and yet somehow you keep falling short of what you set out to do. And even when you do make progress, even when you do achieve that goal or standard or even moral or ethical view of yourself that you set out to achieve, you still have this nagging question, should I do more? Should I be more? Am I actually enough?

[01:44] This is what we want to explore today as part of our podcast on how to make space for a life that is enough. We want to talk about what it looks like to not constantly add more to your already busy sense of self, and in particular, to ask the question, how can we achieve standards and an ethical or even moral life without tying our self worth to what we achieve and without tying our self worth to what other people think about us? Essentially, this episode is about exploring what we call the pressure to be better and how the standards we live by can both guide and trap us and what it looks like to consider that at a deeper, more robust, even spiritual and philosophical level. So that's what we're here for today. And I'm here with my co-host, my friend, the one and only Matt Bain who definitely is enough. Welcome Matt.

MATT BAIN: [02:40] Thanks, Dan. It is great to be back here again.

DANIEL SIH: [02:45] Yeah. And look, it's been good to explore this topic. We've been talking about some big issues.

MATT BAIN: [02:49] Yeah, yeah, we have.

DANIEL SIH: [02:49] Yeah. Now, we're going to get more practical as the season goes through, but I think it's important to, I suppose, lift the lid on why we're exhausted in this constant, do more, be more self-optimized culture that we currently live in. And the topic, I suppose, we're talking about for this whole podcast is, you know, help this well-being or self-help is killing me. What does it look like to live life that is enough?

MATT BAIN: [03:14] Yeah. Yeah, that's it. And this week's subject, it's particularly like pertinent for me, got me thinking about something I did back in 2021. I've been convicted for a while that I should really be a better, more present, proactive father to my two sons. You know, I've got two boys, they're getting older, I want to do the right thing by them. So no one made me do this, right? This was all internally driven. So I thought about it and I compiled this great list, like just on a regular word document, and I went into all the detail in terms of resources that I wanted to use, times I was going to use these resources to help, you know, be a better dad, help my sons, it was pretty exhaustive, it was pretty long. And I thought the last thing that I want to do is neglect this or forget about it. So I'm even going to entitle it. So the title of the document was how to be a better dad 2021.

[04:05] And I thought, I don't want to lose sight of this. So pretty, pretty creative, right? I do want to lose sight of it. So I thought, I'm going to put it somewhere at its front. So I'm literally going to position it like in the middle of my computer laptop desktop. So it's right there, like front and center.

DANIEL SIH: [04:20] So you've done all the right things.

MATT BAIN: [04:20] Yeah, I've done the right thing.

DANIEL SIH: [04:23] Yeah, yeah, that's right. You've got a goal, you're clear about what it looks like, and it aligns with your values. That sounds awesome.

MATT BAIN: [04:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right.

DANIEL SIH: [04:26] Where this story, so how'd it go?

MATT BAIN: [04:31] And again, intrinsically motivated as well, no external compulsion, just me. So it went really great for probably like a whole 72 hours. And then after that, it just like, it's somehow, I suppose, like gathered metaphorical dust over it, just like left it there, the desktop got crowded out with a bunch of other stuff, you know, the intricate timetable do this on this particular time on this particular day, they got overrun by other pressing concerns of the day. And then 2021 how to be a better dad 2021, like the calendar clicked over to 2022, 2023. And then one of my sons happened to be just kind of like roving across my desktop one day, and saw this document and opened it up and just started laughing. So that was the final proof in the pudding.

DANIEL SIH: [05:14] Did any of it stick?

MATT BAIN: [05:14] Oh man, like bits of it, but like it was, and like, here's the thing, right? It was in a perfect world, if you like, as in if everything was predictable. And if I could always muster my will to match my intentions, it was actually feasible, everything I had. So there was in the in, so let's say theoretically, there was time for everything that I had wanted to implement. And I already had the resources. So on one level, it was actually realistic. That was probably like the most it wasn't, it wasn't kind of, it wasn't too aspirational. If I was like a robot, I could have done it. That was probably the most confronting part. And that's why I went through this little mini cycle of striving really hard, working really hard, being thoughtful and intentional, trying, failing, feeling guilty about it, and starting to question, am I actually like a good dad? And you know, and if I'm not a good dad, am I actually a good person?

DANIEL SIH: [06:07] Wow. I know deep, huh? No, I appreciate it. It's like sub five minutes, I think doing this podcast. But I mean, I think your story connects with so much of what we're talking about that on the one hand, as humans, you know, let's talk about it kind of metaphysically, we want to strive to be better and to align our life with our values in your situation to be a better dad, which is really, really important, right? We talked about health last week, you know, what does it look like to be healthy, to care for your body, to invest in longevity even. And it could be in any other area, obviously, I'm a productivity consultant, I'm always working with people to help them optimize and improve their work habits so they can make space for a better life. But no matter what set of standards, or codes, or external or internally kind of imbued rules that you try to reach up to, I mean, your situation's just the human condition, right? We typically fall short of what we want to achieve, even if it's realistic.

MATT BAIN: [07:04] Yeah, even if it's realistic.

DANIEL SIH: [07:04] Yeah. And so how do we deal with that? How do you, I suppose what I heard is, you know, am I a good dad? Am I a good person? I mean, I think this is the question we want to wrestle with, which is not so much, yeah, okay, you didn't reach this set of XYZ standards for being a great dad, and I'm sure you are a good dad, but you know, to be like the dad, but that then kind of linked into how you felt as a person about your identity and your self-worth. That's what I heard, is that?

MATT BAIN: [07:36] Yeah, that's right. That's right. There was the connection between my perceived performance, or lack thereof, and my identity and self-worth.

DANIEL SIH: [07:45] Yeah, it's that kind of connection between maybe what we call the performance trap, which is where you link your value and self-worth to how you achieve or perform. So what you do, or the converse, and they usually happen in tandem somehow, the approval trap where you value and judge your self-worth and identity based on how other people view you, both can lead to kind of misery and certainly that lack of feeling like you are enough, like you've done enough, like you are enough. And that's why it links in with this podcourse.

DANIEL SIH: [08:17] Okay, I'm going to share my own personal confession because I know you're going to share a story. It's interesting, you said 2021, right?

MATT BAIN: [08:33] Yeah, 2021.

DANIEL SIH: [08:33] Maybe 2021, 2022 was the year because I actually have a similar story. I actually thought, well, you know, I've always had goals, and I set a goal, and then I aim for the goal, you want to get this many YouTube subscribers and this much money, get this much business, or be this type of person, hit these goals. Anyway, I've done this for years, I've always been a goal setter, and I typically don't hit my goals. And I realized that then I'm living in the future. I kind of, I love the chase, but I feel kind of miserable when I don't reach the goal. Even if I've made like 90% progress, if I don't hit that goal, I'll feel terrible. So I thought, okay, I've got to start moving towards habits or outcome habits or process measures, not so much kind of outcomes. And so I set a heap of habits, I thought, well, I won't measure goals, I'll measure habits, this will be how I can improve my standards.

[09:29] So here we are, this is my actual personal habit chart for 2022. The irony is it is literally sitting on my wall, half of them are crossed out, meaning I couldn't even be bothered aiming for them anymore. And I still haven't even changed the date and it's like 2025. So in 2022, I wanted to be healthy and strong. So it's an identity piece. So never miss a gym workout three times a week. So I've actually managed that tick. Be a learner. So read for two hours a week, boom-boom.  Be a writer, write for two hours a week, boom-boom. Be a business builder, speak on two podcasts each week, write a newsletter each month, did some of that, be adventurous, say yes to three adventurous activities each year, be a contemplative leader, so spiritual and thankfulness journal daily, practice the presence of God, walk and pray each Monday for two hours, well, that hasn't happened. Be a loving husband. So keep it date night, every fortnight, send a text each month, I just go on and on rather, just literally go on and be a great dad, I've got here, be a great neighbour, be like, a homeowner, clear two green bins a week, maintain fire protection zone, like I've got texting my wife, it just goes on and on, it's exhausting. And yeah, I'm pretty disciplined, but I definitely didn't make the cut.

MATT BAIN: [10:44] Even you.

DANIEL SIH: [10:44] Even me.

MATT BAIN: [10:44] Even you.

DANIEL SIH: [10:49] And it's what we do. We kind of set these goals. Now, maybe I thought this was doable and you thought yours was doable.

MATT BAIN: It sounds doable, like on paper, it sounds like all those things sound doable, right?

DANIEL SIH: [10:54] Well, not in retrospect, but the challenge is when you set these standards, I suppose, how do we measure what's enough? How do we measure what it means to be a good and ethical or moral person? How do we measure, I don't know, what it looks like to be who you are? And then what happens when you fall short?

DANIEL SIH: [11:15] That's what we're going to talk about.

MATT BAIN: [11:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's what we do with the almost inevitable defeat.

DANIEL SIH: [11:21] On that happy note, let's move to the next section. All right, so Matt, we've called this episode the pressure to be better. I do what I don't want to do. And when we were thinking about this problem of you and I struggling to meet our expectations and the fact that like almost everyone we meet wrestles with this question, how do we reach that standard and yet not feel miserable? We actually realized that there are some like this is a question that people have been wrestling with for well, forever, since forever. And so you and I from the Christian tradition, St. Paul writes this fantastic monologue where he talks about in the book of Romans, the fact that he has this kind of external moral standard that he's trying to reach this religious standard, and he continually fails and he feels miserable. It's exactly the same as you and I. So I love this passage from St. Paul. He says, “I do not understand what I do. For I want to do,” sorry, there's a lot of like tongue twister things in this one. Okay, “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate to do, for I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do this I keep on doing.” And then he goes on, “what a wretched man as I”, so what he's saying is the things I want to do, I don't do. I want to do them. I set the standard. I set the goals and yet I keep failing at them. And what I don't want to do, the things I know aren't helpful for me, the things that make me feel shame or anxious or things that just make me miserable or just don't reach up to the standards I should live. I do them anyway. Like why the heck do I do that? And I love how raw and honest Paul is in this passage in Romans 7. Look, it's part of a big theological piece, which is rich about law and grace, about like the spirit versus the flesh. There's all these kind of theological concepts in this, but he starts essentially by saying, I can't live up to the standards I want to reach as a human. And this seems to be a condition of what it looks like to be a person. And I find that very helpful.

MATT BAIN: [13:20] Yeah, yeah, it's it's powerful stuff because he's talking like he's using moral language. So he's like talking about not just like, I suppose missing self-imposed ideals, he's like talking about doing the wrong thing morally, like breaking ethical codes and what's really illuminating. And also it's it's both confronting, but also kind of comforting. It's not like me and like your example, it's not a lack of knowledge. It's not a lack of to some degree, I guess even like conviction, like again, he's talking about moral right or wrong. So despite knowing what the right thing to do is, despite on one level wanting to do the right thing, he still fails. And that is so relatable. So, you know, I can't blame ignorance, can't blame like not being educated enough, can't blame not having enough information

DANIEL SIH: Or even genetics. Like when I report, he seems to be a pretty determined kind of Type A personality. You know, he's a go getter, he's an entrepreneur, you'd use that language nowadays, he starts things right. So it's not like he's probably more like a me than a co-host. Like, you know, I have high standards, I'm disciplined, like I typically do what I say I'll do. And yet that just makes me reach for even higher standards. And then I fail again. And when I link or hook in my identity and self worth to that, it becomes a disaster, right? Either I reach my standards and then become judgmental because others aren't like me, or I fail and then I feel miserable because I do what I don't want to do, wretched man mind. It's like, I really, I don't know, I connect with Paul when I hear him speak like that because it feels very honest and real to the human condition.

DANIEL SIH: [14:58] And what he's trying to do in this Roman 7 passage, and I know you don't have to be religious to care about this, but what he is doing is that he's trying to come up with an answer to the question that essentially we're trying to answer in this episode, which is, you know, how can I live up to a moral or ethical code or standard? Whether, you know, in his case, it was externally given, but it can also be internally designed in an individual culture. But how do I live up to a moral or ethical stand without constantly falling short and either hating myself or giving up? I think that's the question we want to answer.

MATT BAIN: [15:29] Yeah, yeah, like, yeah, yeah, how do you, how do you, again, like, how do you live with yourself in the face of failure?

DANIEL SIH: [15:34] Yeah. And what you don't want to do is give up and say, well, actually, I'll just, you do you, like standards don't matter, and I'll have low standards. And then somehow think that I'm going to feel okay. Well, maybe, you know, you are feeling okay for a while, but your life won't turn out well and you won't treat people well. And at the same time, if you set the types of standards that actually a good human should live, well, then you keep falling short. So how do we navigate the mix? So for a bit of context, I think this is really helpful. So for those who have no idea about, you know, the Apostle Paul or Saint Paul, he was a religious Jew of the sect called phariseism or he was a Pharisee. So basically, it was, it was a religious Jew who cared a lot about keeping a particular set of rules and regulations. And Pharisees believed that if they could actually do this and do that and keep this and keep that, well, then somehow they would be holy and therefore they would be blessed by God and their nation would be blessed. So it was kind of a virtuous moral code that they were trying to live up to, to help others and themselves, which sounds very different than our culture. But I actually want to propose that it's very similar to our culture in a different way. But the challenge is, like we've been talking about, there were so many rules and regulations that no one could keep up, not only the Pharisees, but also those who they were trying to impose their rules and laws on, which is what you read about a lot in, you know, the New Testament.

DANIEL SIH: [16:59] So the Torah, which is the first five books of Moses, the first five scriptures in the Bible, had 613 instructions for how to live a moral life. That's a lot, right? I'm your how to be a better dad, probably didn't have 613 precepts.

MATT BAIN: [17:09] Even more than you're this, mate.

DANIEL SIH: [17:09] Even more than mine, right? But by the time Paul was actually trying to apply these rules and regulations, the, his sect, the Pharisees had added over 1500 clauses and sub clauses to those regulations. It was called the Mishnah and basically spelled out what it looked like to be enough. And I think this is fascinating. So there are rules about Sabbath keeping, there are rules about fasting and giving, memorizing scripture, how you should wash, how you should eat, how you should stay clean, who should spend time with. They even had rules about how you should walk when you can like stitch a stitch, you know, when you can help an animal out of a pit. Like there are rules for everything. And, and then he couldn't keep those rules, even the smaller rules that he created later on, you know, he was given. And so again, he's, he's, he's falling short and saying, I do what I don't want to do. I don't do what I do want to do.

DANIEL SIH: [18:03] Now, while that may sound ridiculous to modern listeners, you know, how ridiculous to have so many rules. I actually think increasingly we are seeing two things in our culture, which look very, very similar. On the one hand, you have like the bureaucracy of our kind of systems and culture, where to build a shed, you need like 500,000 forms and 25 checklists and like a million consultants. Like we're, we're seeing paperwork and lists and rules imposed on us through regulation and safety, which I think actually look, it'd be more than 613 laws that we technically have to abide by. So I think we do live in a culture like that. But I think on a kind of a simple level, we just have so many self-imposed rules. And this is what we've been talking about. Yes, I don't have to keep Sabbath.

DANIEL SIH: [18:49] I was going to say I don't have to fast, but intermittent fasting is definitely coming back.

MATT BAIN: Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: [18:53] You know, I don't have rules about kind of when I should pray, but gosh, I've kind of got rules about, well, and it depends on what tribe you hang out with, but I should say the right things. Otherwise I'll get cancelled.

MATT BAIN: You should keep a gratitude journal.

DANIEL SIH: I need to keep a gratitude journal. I need to kind of eat chia seeds and, and care for my microbiome by eating kind of kimchi and fermented, you know, foods. I need to have the right supplements. I need to exercise the right way. I need to look the right way. My skin has to do the right stuff. I have to exercise, have to be great dad, especially in 2021. Does that make sense? Like there are, there is an endless amount of stuff we are told we have to, we ought to, we must do to be enough. It may not be an externally given list, but as an individual, we are actually compelled to look at the best of all the options and actually come up with an impossible menu. And that menu is increasingly long.

MATT BAIN: [19:47] Yeah, it's good. It's good. So it may not be moral, sorry, it may not be religious per se, but it's definitely moral. It's moralistic.

DANIEL SIH: [19:52] Yeah. And, and, you know, it's increasingly, and we're using increasingly moral language in politics, particularly if you look at what's happening with Democrats, Republicans, the left and the right. If you don't follow this list, XYZ, the language you use, the rules you keep, the things you do and the things you don't do, well, then you are evil.

MATT BAIN: [20:11] Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: It's increasingly becoming moral, actually.

MATT BAIN: Even you got cancelled after last week's joke.

DANIEL SIH: [20:15] I probably did get cancelled after last week's joke. It's weird. We've only got two listeners left now. But you'll have to, you'll have to actually listen to last week's episode on the Vegan CrossFit Paradox if you want to get the end joke. But can you see how that's relevant?

MATT BAIN: [20:27] Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: And how what we read from, let's say, Romans 7 still has relevance today. How do we actually have standards and yet not give up?

MATT BAIN: [20:41] Yeah. Again, not to put too far on a point on it, but I think it's like, how to have standards, how not to give up, but then how to deal with the, I'd say, almost inevitable failure that you will encounter when even after a long good period of consistent reaching those standards, you're going to trip up.

DANIEL SIH: [20:58] Yeah. And how do you not then hook that into your very self-identity and self-worth?

DANIEL SIH: [21:11] So that's what this episode's about.

DANIEL SIH: [21:16] Yes. So look, Matt, we want to tackle things pretty challenging, which is, I mean, you and I have done a lot of thought about how, how do people define their identity? There's a few different options, different ways people tackle it. But unless you ask that deeper question of where do you find an identity, a sense of self being outside of doing, well, then it's very hard to have that second question, which is how do you tackle the problem of not being able to do what you want to do and do what you don't want to do?

MATT BAIN: [21:41] Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: See, I got it out. Okay. So let's talk about where people can find their identity or at least ways in which people attempt to identify themselves.

MATT BAIN: [21:47] Yeah. Yeah. So all the usual provisos, these are real three different big generalizations, but I think it's fair to say most of us, if not all of us will land in one of these three broad camps. Okay. So again, these camps are all about establishing someone's identity and related to that answering the question, how much is enough? How do you determine how much is enough?

DANIEL SIH: And probably who am I right?

MATT BAIN: [22:08] And who am I? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So three broad options. We've got the collective, we've got the individual, the individualistic, and we've got the religious. So first of all, the collective. So this is me recognizing that I am at heart a social creature, right? So my views, my take on things is going to be largely influenced by other people because I'm a social creature. So what I do with that truth is that I say, okay, it's really important for me to identify a group, a group of people that hold values, aspirations, who can help define and maintain and judge the line of what's enough, well. So a group that I kind of aspire to. So I say, I'm going to link my identity and the answer to that question of how much is enough. And almost, I suppose, like the judgment of whether I've attained enough, I'm going to link that to this particular group. And by groups, like I'm thinking it could be like a family group. So you may admire your particular, like your family of origin and your, you know, the couple of generations before you. It may be like a sporting group that you think these people exhibit great values and aspirations that I can be part of. It may be a kind of like community group that you kind of resonate with. Or it may be more and more people seem to be signing up to online tribes. Because obviously with the proliferation of the internet, you can find a group of people who kind of embody and exemplify and aspire to really tailor-made values that you resonate with.

DANIEL SIH: [23:30] But even the examples that you give are predominantly coming from a Western mindset because the, you know, I'm half Chinese, the majority of the world like Asian, Islam, African cultures, like our collective as cultures, right?

MATT BAIN: [23:40] Yeah, well, compared to them.

DANIEL SIH: [23:40] Yeah. You don't wake up and say, well, how will I define myself? Well, you know how you define yourself. It's by what your tribe say is right and wrong.

MATT BAIN: Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: This is the people, these are the people I hang out with. This is my social tribe. And therefore I find my identity or my sense of value based on what the collective do.

MATT BAIN: [24:01] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. I mean, again, I'd say in this particular example, the, the, the, the, um, distinguishing feature is that you're really intentional and conscious about it. So it's not just I kind of inherited like this family of origin. It's like I've reached an age and stage where I'm self aware enough that I'm going to intentionally consciously make this my tribe.

DANIEL SIH: [24:19] Yeah.

MATT BAIN: So maybe the family of origin and where you've come from, but you jump into it, you know what I mean?

MATT BAIN: [24:23] And obviously this approach has lots of strengths. One being it's, you know, it's not as subjective as just me kind of determining who am I and what's enough. So you kind of externalizing if you like, um, and you're trusting a group of people who are going to have more of a reasonable detached take on what's important and how I'm doing.

DANIEL SIH: Or at least, at least the collective take.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, a collective take.

DANIEL SIH: [24:45] Yeah. And when you surround yourself with people who essentially all identify themselves by the same code or the same sense of value, well, then it's a lot easier just to say, okay, well, my self worth and identity is linked my identity with this broader tribe. There's obviously negatives as well.

MATT BAIN: [25:02] Yeah, yeah, that's right.

DANIEL SIH: You know, and there's those negatives are bound. I mean, obviously if you get excluded from your tribe or if you don't somehow fit or if you're an individual that doesn't fit the values of the collective, when that can become a problem, can lead to kind of patriotism and, you know, I don't know, colonialism or all the kind of like nationalist stuff that happens when you identify yourself by a people and by a particular belief, which is usually at the exclusion of others.

MATT BAIN: [25:29] Yeah, it's really easy on top of all that just to like, to fall into a trap of, do I really believe what this tribe, what this peer group espouses, or am I just being performative? Am I just kind of like doing the thing and verbalizing the thing in order to fit in with this group? Do I still really believe it?

MATT BAIN: [25:47] There's a risk in abdicating your responsibility for again, your aspirations, your values and ideals. And like you said, there's always a chance that the tribe or the group will somehow take a misstep in terms of what they believe and what they value history has proven that time and time again. So there are risks with that.

DANIEL SIH: [26:02] Yeah, absolutely. Okay, but the first option, yeah, how you find, I suppose, an identity in yourself, the sense of self is the, we'll call it the social tribe option.

MATT BAIN: [26:11] Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

DANIEL SIH: [26:15] Okay. So the second one, yeah, is this one's quite interesting. I found this interesting, at least, we'll call it the DIY option.

MATT BAIN: [26:20] Yeah, yeah, the DIY option. Yes, the DIY option that the, you know, and this is probably the one that's most prevalent in our particular context that is so hyper individualistic. And that is that really my life is a blank canvas. It's just an empty slate. I can pick and mix from all this smorgasbord of options around what kind of person I want to be. And with that, how much is enough? Does that make sense?

DANIEL SIH: [26:45] Yeah, so this is about you and I, you know, you want to define what it means to be a dad. We're not simply just doing what all the other dads around you have always done. Now you need to actually, you know, read various authors, come up with different ideas, write your list, self define what a great dad looks like, and then try to live up to that standard. So you've kind of mixed and matched from different areas. This is what a good dad looks like in your example. That's my DIY option. But we do that for all of our life. This is what it looks like. This is what money looks like. This is what it looks like to be a good person. This is what I believe. These are my values.

DANIEL SIGH: [27:21] You kind of mix and match. Yeah, you come up with your DIY option. That's your moral code. And therefore you have to live up to that to be enough.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. And there's a heap of good things about this approach, right? Because like number one, I'm not abdicating responsibility for my life and they give my values and my aspirations. So that's a good thing. Secondly, I'm, you know, in theory, I am free myself from just in kind of mindlessly taking on the shackles, the blind spots of whatever family of origin or culture I may have been born into. Right? So I'm not just again, I'm not just kind of like unthinkingly, uncritically adapting whatever cultural inheritance or ethnic inheritance milieu I grew up in. So that's good for that too.

DANIEL SIH: And theoretically, it can protect or guard a little bit against the kind of negative group thing.

DANIEL SIH: [28:08] Yeah. Where tribes go and actually fight wars in front of others. Assuming that actually you are individually creating your identity as opposed to we're all individuals.

MATT BAIN: [28:15] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: We all have the tat. And we all use the same language. And we all watch the same Netflix episodes because we're individuals.

MATT BAIN: [28:23] Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And that kind of like that nicely highlights the risk or the pitfalls with this approach. That being primarily, I can overestimate the power of my, if you like, individuality and my personal discernment, if you like, and I can miss and underestimate, again, the influences of things like my genetic background, things like, again, like the influence of my family of origin, like let alone the pull and the allure and the subtle, the subtle, but all-pervasive of advertising, mass media, tailored algorithms, I can downplay all of that. So I can think that I'm an individual and I'm doing okay, but really I'm just being pulled along like every second sucker. You know what I mean?

MATT BAIN: [29:06] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, I made reference to the life of Brian where, you know, someone said, I'm an individual and I was like, well, we are all individuals and they all sit at the same way. But I mean, I read a stat that like I think there's 80 or 85% of what is watched around the globe, let's say Netflix, Amazon, et cetera, is based on algorithmic recommendations. So we all think we're choosing what we watch and yet 80% of us are watching what the algorithm has given us. So in that sense, are we really self-defining our individual identity or are we actually just pretending we are? But the bigger question isn't whether it actually works or whether it's possible because I think there's a sense it is possible, but it's a heavy burden.

MATT BAIN: [29:48] Yeah, yeah, it's such a heavy burden. Like ultimately, do you really want to have full responsibility for defining what is morally wrong, what is morally right? And also how you're going meeting that standard? Because I know like, and I think I'm pretty typical in this regard on a good day, I will be pretty sober minded about my performance, so to speak. And so, but I don't have so many of those days, I have days where either I'm far, far, far too critical, have like that monkey mind chattering, just putting me down, deriding me constantly, just berating me in my head saying you're a failure, useless, blah, blah, blah. That doesn't give me an accurate assessment on how I performed or rarer days, but still too many, where I just think, you know, I've just constantly smashed it. You know, somehow I've done great and all my critics are absolutely wrong and just haven't, haven't read me properly. You know what I mean? So I usually end up on one or two extremes too critical, or I give myself way too much of a free pass. I'm wearing like six halos at once. You know what I mean? And I think that's like, that's, I'm pretty typical.

DANIEL SIH: And you're up typical. And I think this is why we, like we, we're all wrestling with the burden and exhaustion of feeling like you have to add more and more and more and more good things to yourself to definition and then somehow live up to it, which is what this season is about.

DANIEL SIH: [31:09] Yeah. So we've talked about the social tribe option as one, we've talked about the DIY option as others both have valid, both have value, both have drawbacks. Tell us about the religious option.

MATT BAIN: [31:15] Yeah. So the third one, the religious option. And this is going to be primarily generally about, you know, the big three monotheistic religions. So Judaism, Islam and Christianity. So the big question, who determines what enough, who actually gets to define what a person is, it's God. So it's going to be God giving us this information via revelation. And so it's God who provides the principles, if you like, the ethical code, the morality or the moral framework. And it's also God who ultimately determines whether I have met that or not.

DANIEL SIH: So it's a bit like the social tribe option in the sense that there's a kind of, maybe it's less malleable, but there's a definition of what is right and wrong, what is morally good and not, which isn't self-defined or individualized. It's external.

DANIEL SIH: [31:57] But it's not coming from people. It's coming from revelation or from traditional from God.

MATT BAIN: [32:02] Yeah, that's right. And again, the argument to your point would be, it's not, it's less malleable. And one of the reasons why it's less malleable is that even compared to social tribes or peer groups that I opt into, these three religions have been around for thousands of years. So in terms of, I guess, like passing the test of time and social trends and what's popular and what's not and group think and all that kind of stuff, largely like these three have remained pretty intact. So some would argue that counts for something. You know, and it's kind of survived, if you like, it's even flourished through social evolution.

DANIEL SIH: [32:39] Yeah, okay. So that's the advantage that while you're, I suppose, submitting or entering into a pre-designed framework, you know, voluntarily, and obviously if you believe it's God, well, hopefully it's right. But at the same time, there are obviously some negatives like all of them.

MATT BAIN: [32:53] Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: I'm assuming there’s a negative.

MATT BAIN: [32:53] Yeah, of course, like there's negatives and risks. And again, it's, you know, it's worth saying, particularly perhaps like for an audience that comes from our context, this is the option that may sound most jarring to kind of modern ears, to some degree, and people are plenty aware of the pitfalls. So group think still survives within these three religions. There's different expressions, if you like, I guess, factions amongst all these three that are perhaps more extreme, particularly zealous. And some people would say more morally kind of questionable as well. Right. And again, because I guess, you know, you're doing your, your, to some degree, there are leaders, they're going to be leaders within all those different tribes or religions, and they are going to speak to some degree with the authority of God. And that is obviously more prone and open to say being abused than just the leader of a particular, you know, tribe kind of human made constructed tribe over here.

DANIEL SIH: [33:54] Or an individual that then tries to define their own way forward.

MATT BAIN: [33:54] Yeah, yeah, they are, they are relying on claiming divine authority.

DANIEL SIH: [33:59] Yeah, that makes sense. But there's also advantages. So again, look, they're the three options that we see, obviously you might come up with others. But I think it's important to think about where, what's the origin of how I define my self identity. Because then we want to talk about, well, how do you actually do the mental gymnastics, which is actually really important to somehow then do things that matter and to perform at a standard, or to actually build loving and meaningful relationships with people without the hook, that is, I am worth what I achieve or my self worth is defined by what other people think of me. And that's where we go next.

MATT BAIN: [34:38] Yeah, yeah. Also, again, like on top of that, what do I do with failure?

DANIEL SIH: And what I do with failure? [34:43] I like it. Yeah. But I mean, before we dive into some practical how to reframe your thinking approaches, I think for me, where I find it tough, if I'm, if I'm really honest is that I can believe something or I can be, I can have a particular worldview or framework. And yet, I find I'm still emotional, you know, I have anxiety, I have insecurity, I struggle with the everyday experiences of being a human and trying to navigate doing things. I suppose I'm saying I failed just like you. And that's, that's where it's hard, like where the rubber hits the road.

MATT BAIN: [35:15] Yeah, can I just like make a quick distinction though? I think it's worth saying there's overly harsh self criticism that will say I failed when I think objectively, and if you ask anyone who loved me and who was watching me, they would say, no, you haven't. And then there's objective failure where we have screwed up.

DANIEL SIH: [35:34] Yeah. And that's a good differentiation. Yeah. So I'm probably thinking about the first in this situation. Like just this week, and I was thinking about, you know, Saturday, I just felt miserable. I don't, I am an emotional person. I'll say that I'm not a particularly, you know, I'm not kind of like, you know, I don't know what to say. I'm not a car. I don't know. You know, I go up and down, but like all day, I just, I felt anxious to be honest, anxious and insecure of the two words I'd give it. And the reason I felt anxious and insecure is because the day before I gave a quote to someone and it was pretty high because I'm trying to increase my quotes because I've been undercharging in certain areas and working too hard. So I'm trying to increase, I suppose, the cap of what I think I'm worth. And the whole time I just felt like maybe I've made a mistake, will I have offended them? And my worth that much and my services worth that much? Like it's like, it, an outside of the realm of money, essentially what I was struggling with is I've just feel insecure and anxious because my worth is tied with whether this person says yes or no. They'll take that quote or whether I've upset them.

[36:45] Now, I know that that is a small example, but I suppose what I've realized is, I mean, I come from a religious worldview, just like you do. I know the theory. I know I'm loved. I have a worldview and a framework that shows that I'm valuable irrespective of what I do. And yet I send a quote and I spend a day feeling insecure and anxious. And I think that's the challenge. Like it's the personal lived experience. I find hard.

MATT BAIN: [37:10] Yeah, yeah. Okay. But I like, I see that failure and I'll raise it. Okay. I'll raise it. Because I reckon to some degree, you can call that, you know, you can call that failure or you can call it self doubt, but you take, you take any guy and I feel like more safer kind of like addressing guys who’ve got a partner or and or kids. And I'll say, okay, like you tell me, like, where does your standard about being a good partner or a father come from? And they may say, well, look, again, I've gone with the DIY individualistic options. So here are my standards. Okay. So this is what it means to be like a good partner. Okay. Have you always met those standards? Have you like honestly, have you really? And if I asked your, your partner, whether you have, what would they tell me? They've failed. They have all failed. Okay so what about if

DANIEL SIH: [37:55] We have all failed.

MATT BAIN: [37:56] Yeah, that's right. Like, and I'm not talking about doubting ourselves or just feeling like we've failed. I'm talking about objectively.

DANIEL SIH: Okay. So yeah, we're looking at both.

 [38:01] Yeah, it's the internal experience, which is what I was talking about. And the very harsh reality. But there are things we should do that we don't do.

MATT BAIN: [38:06] Yeah, that's right.

DANIEL SIH: And there are things we don't do that we should do. Wretched man am I, right.

MATT BAIN: [38:06] Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. So the question is, okay, so if that's true, then what does it mean to be human? I like to be human is to someone who says that they aspire to this and they fail constantly.

[38:20] Oh, great. Okay, that's good. So that's your definition of what it means to be human. That's really helpful.

DANIEL SIH: Okay. So then so what we want to go to here, I suppose is then how do you do, I'll call it mental gymnastics is probably more that but kind of what type of belief system can you tackle? What kind of mental thinking do you need to help you navigate both? Okay, I still need to aspire to be a good dad, right, to have those high standards because to do less than that is just to be a suboptimal human. I don't think we should just lower our standards and say now there's no tension. Yeah. So yeah. So at the same time, how do you actually have those high standards fail miserably and then still not link it to your sense of being and self worth? Okay, that's a tough thing.

MATT BAIN: This is great. Right. So if I've heard you right, we're not advocating or trying to promote resignation or being passive. At the same time, we're not advocating denial. Oh, look, if I failed, it's only because I think I failed and I feel like I failed, but I'll find the right person in my life to tell me “At a boy Matt, you haven't really failed.” You know what I mean?

[39:20] Yeah, it's not about that either.

DANIEL SIH: [39:20] Yeah. And that's that's walking the tension of the paradox. Okay. So we you and I have been thinking they're like, there are multiple ways you can do this. But we came up with three that we've heard of from different authors from our own experience. I think we talked about the values worldview. We've we've got the you don't really matter worldview or the cosmic insignificance worldview as the other one. And then the religious or Christian worldview. So let's go through these as three examples, not not kind of the exhaustive ways in which you can do this. But I think it helps people recognize different ways in which you can actually have an approach to this problem.

MATT BAIN: [39:57] Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good. Yeah. So number one, and again, for the sake of simplicity, we're just like kind of call this the pragmatic take on things. So this is based on my understanding as an example of something like ACT, ACT therapy, act therapy, so ACT, action commitment therapy. But I'm sure there are other examples as well or schools of thought. And basically, this espouses in my understanding that again, DIY individualistic approach, I will select self select the values that are important to me. I will then try to act live in such a way that is always consistent with those values because they're important to me. And then when I have thoughts or feelings to go back to your example, where I think, man, I think I've failed here or I'm starting to doubt whether I actually acted, you know, in conjunction with this value, then I will put them through a litmus test in my head and that test isn't so much, is it true? It's more, is it helpful? So is it helpful for me to have this thought or have this feeling? So to your example, you know, so I'm starting to doubt whether that was a, you know, whether a fair price to put on my services.

DANIEL SIH: And whether I should be feeling insecure as a result.

MATT BAIN: And you think, well, is Dan feeling insecure about this helpful? Probably not. So that's when I need to unhook or detach that feeling and that thought from who I really am. So it's like, okay, I recognize that thought, I recognize that feeling. I also recognize that it's not helpful. And so I'm not going to fuse my sense of identity and who I am with that thought or feeling. Does that make sense?

DANIEL SIH: [41:34] Yep. Yeah. But what if you've defined your values and you don't live up to them and the thoughts and feelings of feeling guilty or shameful or not reaching that standard are actually accurate? And helpful. What do you do then?

MATT BAIN: Sorry, are helpful?

DANIEL SIH: Are helpful. Well, because they’re accurate.

MATT BAIN: [41:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then you course correct and you adjust your next action based on that. So again, it's not just thoughts and feelings, it's the action. What do I actually need to do to be more, to live in such a way, behave, act in such a way that is consistent with these values that I've identified.

DANIEL SIH: [42:12] Okay, great. Yeah. Okay, so that's kind of the pragmatic ACT values.

MATT BAIN: [42:18] That's my take on it.

DANIEL SIH: [42:18] Yeah, no, that makes sense to me. Okay. So then what's another approach? One, the other approach we've seen, which we quite like, at least gets us thinking, is from 4000 Weeks by Oliver Birken, which we keep going back to that book, but it actually is a great book on time and time philosophy. We'll call it the You Don't Really Matter approach worldview.

MATT BAIN: [42:41] Yeah, yeah. So it just sounds a little bit bleak. But to be fair, I think his side of for was something kind of equally as cheery, like cosmic insignificance, the cosmic insignificance theory. And so this is really about perspective. This is like, oh, geez, Dan, like, why are you getting so freaking hung up on whether you overcharge for your services when probably like, I hate to break it to you, but in like three decades time, two decades time, hell, maybe even like in a month, no one's going to care. No one's going to care. Like, in the overall span of history and time, your big call as to the dollar value that you put on your charge out hourly fee, no one's going to remember that, you know, not barely anyone like thinks about it now. You kind of can get preoccupied about it. You can get hung up about it. Because again, you understand, you think we all naturally like default that I'm the main actor. You know, in this, in this, in this like big production of life, and I'm like the star, when in reality, I'm surrounded by all these other people that have got their own things going, and in the overall span of time, no one's going to remember this. So have some perspective, give yourself some breathing room. Don't think that what I do is likely going to put a dent in the universe, you know, to quote Steve Jobs, people are going to eventually forget the iPhones, or at least they're going to forget who came up with them. You know what I mean?

DANIEL SIH: [44:01] Yeah. Yeah. So I remember Berkman talks about the fact that we think that humanity is incredibly long. You think about something like the Egyptians, you know, and the pharaohs of like the ancient days. But if like he said, if you mapped out generations that started, let's say at the time when the pharaoh was building the pyramids, and let's suggest that in every single generation there's been, you know, centurions, people who've lived a hundred years.

MATT BAIN: Centenarians.

DANIEL SIH: Centenarian, but they've lived a hundred years. Okay. So we multiply. How many generations would it be?

[44:30] And I think it was something absurd, like what 30, 35 generations to all that time ago. You know, I suppose what his point is that we have this great sense of significance that we are important in the things that we do matter. But actually when you think about it from a cosmic perspective, that's even just a human perspective, but let alone, you know, a universe perspective, the things we do actually have zero significance and actually they don't in the long run anyway.

[44:56] So therefore, don't stress too much. Don't feel so worried about it and just try to get on with doing what you can.

[45:01] I think that's essentially Berkman's argument. It's kind of like a cosmic version of hey, in 10 years, what you do won't matter. So don't stress so much. So you've got perspective.

MATT BAIN: [45:10] Yeah. Yeah. And obviously, like this is a package deal. So all these are package deals, right? So like the first option, the pragmatic option, like part of that package deal is there's no kind of external arbiter or higher authority that has any kind of, if you like, say or moral, say or take on your behaviour.

DANIEL SIH: [45:25] Yeah. And it probably assumes that actually when you pass away, you don't have a soul that lasts either.

[45:30] The assumption is that this life is what you've got.

MATT BAIN: [45:30] Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

DANIEL SIH: And with that in mind, you know, you can do the mental gymnastics to get yourself off the hook when you're making mistakes.

[45:37] Because you actually don't matter in the first place and nothing you do has any meaning. Let me read Berkman's own words to finish this section. He says in 4000 weeks, “To remember how little you matter on a cosmic time scale can feel like putting down a heavy burden that most of us didn't realize we were carrying in the first place.” Very cheery.

MATT BAIN: [45:54] Yeah. Isn't it? I wonder if he ever told his mum that. No, that's good. How about the third? We taught the three, right?

DANIEL SIH: [46:04] Yeah. Third worldview is like we're looking at the religious worldview. And of course, there are multiple religions and multiple different worldviews, even within each religion. So this is hard to do. But yeah, look, I thought you and I would, we both come from a Christian tradition. So let's explain the one that we understand the best, recognizing that there's different ways to tackle this. But you know, from the way that I see the world and the way that I imagine you see the world, not that we've ever talked about it at that level. But so the Christian worldview is that humans are creating the image of God. So basically, we are intrinsically valuable. That's the first bit. I think that's important. Essentially, there is a spark of God or what we call the Shekinah within each of us. And therefore, each of us do matter. I suppose we're not cosmically insignificant. I probably wrestle with Berkman's worldview is even if I could do the mental gymnastics to say it doesn't matter. And I need perspective. And I think that's actually very helpful. There's something in me that just knows I'm valuable that there is a value in each person. And it's and that we're not insignificant, right? So that's that's where we probably started a Christian worldview.

MATT BAIN: [47:17] Yeah. And if you know what, because you said there's something in you that knows that you're valuable, even if you struggle with if someone struggles with an own self worth, there's going to be someone in your life you think is intrinsically valuable. So if you don't see yourself, you're seeing someone else and really important to highlight that value is regardless of performance or other people's approving.

DANIEL SIH: [47:35] Well, and that's where we're trying to get to, I suppose. So, you know, we're valuable because we're made in God's image. Therefore, it's not because what we do is not because of who likes us outside of the fact that we are created intrinsically valuable because we have the spark of God. So that's really the foundation of the Christian worldview. And from there, you know, you've got the counter or kind of the paradox of that in where we are also what we call sinful, we've fallen short of God's design or maybe the what it looks like to be a moral God type person. And in that sense, you know, we stuff up, we're selfish, we're proud, you know, all that kind of stuff. And there's a whole story about why and why we are marked by sin or brokenness is another word we might use. And so there's kind of paradox. We are divinely created and also deeply stuffed.

MATT BAIN: [48:26] Yeah, so yeah, so I don't reflect perfectly God's loving character.

DANIEL SIH: [48:30] Yeah, and probably more than that, I deliberately kind of do the things that I shouldn't be doing because I want to define what right and wrong is instead of allowing God to do it, which goes back to that kind of worldview we talked about before. So that's the kind of Christian worldview, that's the foundation. And so the solution, I suppose, is well, probably grace rather than law and rule keeping, we understand that, you know, that God came to earth as a human. He died. He by dying, he forgave us of our sins and gave us the ability to live outside of rules and regulations. So that the idea of grace is that you don't earn your goodness. And what you do isn't an indicator of how good you are. But you have intrinsic value because the God of the universe died for you, forgave your sins, put his spark in you, and took away, I suppose, the sin or the bad stuff. And as a response to that, well, then you have the chance to try to chase high values and high perspectives, not to earn your goodness or your salvation in religious terms, but because you are intrinsically valuable, forgiven, and it has nothing to do with you. You know, the God of the universe died before you deserved it. And therefore, you have the ability to actually chase something that matters separated from your self-worth and identity.

MATT BAIN: [49:42] Yeah, so a moral performance, if you like, and moral striving comes out of gratitude, as opposed to having to prove yourself.

DANIEL SIH: [49:49] Exactly. So look, grace is the idea that it's undeserved. Merit is undeserved favour. There's an expression we use in religious terms. Grace is not opposed to effort it's opposed to earning. So you still need to try. You still need to do. But you're unhooked from your self-identity because it comes because of relationship with God. So look, no matter how you look at this, I actually think at the heart of this question, are you enough? And how can you navigate a world which says you need to do more and be more self-optimized and always add more to your life? I think you actually have to have a deep dive to work out, well, what's the context in which I make decisions about what enoughness is, which is what we talked about to start with. And secondly, what's the worldview, the mental gymnastics, the belief system that I am shaped by or need to be shaped by? Because that has a massive implication for whether or not you're able to separate your performance or your approval from your personhood. And unless there's some type of separation between being and doing and who you are as a human versus what you do, you're always going to get caught in that cycle of that heavy burden that feels exhausting.

MATT BAIN: [50:55] Because you're going to fail.

DANIEL SIH: [50:55] Because you'll fail. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we all fail, but you won't know what to do with it. Yeah. So look, these are big topics. We knew that this particular episode was going to be tough. I mean, you and I have gone back and forth on this for ages to try to work out how do you talk about these deep things when we're not, you know, we're not expert psychologists and expert sociologists,

MATT BAIN: We're not even psychologists mate. It’s not even a matter of expert psychologists.

DANIEL SIH: [51:17] Okay, we just make shit up. We make shit up. But we want to make shit up that is helpful. But I do think, you know, what beliefs that the idea of what beliefs, what worldview, what ways of thinking do you have that impact your exhaustion in this world of more? I think that's a really important question. So why don't we just pause, give our listeners a moment of silence to think about these big ideas? And probably the question I'd simply ask you to reflect on is what stands out? What's an idea? A feeling? A thought? That is helpful from this conversation so far.

MATT BAIN: That’s good.

MATT BAIN: [52:20] Hopefully that moment of silence was useful, gave you a chance to reflect because again, we've talked about some pretty big ideas. It's been pretty conceptual so far. But just because it's been conceptual, like don't go thinking that it's not valuable, or that it's not going to have real world concrete applications and implications. So on that, we want to suggest an exercise. Again, this is based on our AWARE framework. We're a little bit pressed for time for this episode, jump in to the last episode to get a bit more of an overview of the AWARE framework. But here's what we'd like you to consider doing over the next week. It's going to involve some journaling, right? We'd like you to dedicate five minutes, just five minutes at the end of every day, to sit, reflect and record the answers to two short questions. First question, what good things, aspirations or ideals did I meet or move toward today? So what aspirations, what ideals, what good goals did I move towards or even meet today? That's the first question. Second question, how has that realising or getting closer to those aspirations or goals, how has that left me feeling about myself, i.e. who I am as a person? Two questions. So far so good? Yeah. So do that over the course of a week. Again, five minutes at the end of every day, recording that.

MATT BAIN: [53:41] Now, at the end of the week, what we'd like you to do is to go back over those reflections and ask a couple of follow up questions. So now that you've got that picture, that daily picture, ask yourself, how are my feelings about myself connected to what I've achieved? So my feelings about myself, how, assuming that they are connected to what it is that I've actually done. Secondly, how are my feelings about myself upon reflection connected to how I think other people view me. And lastly, what do these answers to those two questions reveal about how tightly, how kind of caught up, I link my identity, who I am fundamentally as a person and my worth to my performance, what it is that I've done and achieved and by the perceived approval and opinion that I have from others. Makes sense?

DANIEL SIH: [54:34] Yeah, they're really good questions. They're hard questions, but they're important.

MATT BAIN: [54:38] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I reckon they'll be illuminating.

DANIEL SIH: [54:45] Yeah. Illuminating for anyone. I love journaling. I think it's so important. Socrates said the unexamined life is not worth living. And this is about examining yourself at a deeper level. I'd love you to do that. We'd love you to do that at the Spacemakers. I think it's worthwhile. And it sets you up for the next part of this pod course season, which is starting to get practical about what does it look like to get, well, let go of attachments. What does it look like to practice thankfulness? What does it look like to look for kairos moments? What does it look like to relinquish things that you find hard to let go of? So as we get more pragmatic, it's important that you've done the heart work and the deep reflective worldview work because that will actually underpin your capacity to add practices on top of those things in order to be enough.

MATT BAIN: [55:31] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look, and maybe you'll be surprised.

DANIEL SIH: And look, there's a number of different questions in that activity that you gave. If people need to kind of read it and print it, maybe get an activity sheet, we'd encourage you to download all the handouts from season four. So if you go to spacemakers.au/s4, you can get a summary of the AWARE framework, you'll get a summary of the different activities. It'll be a lot easier to work through the practices in the AWARE framework if you have that free hand up. But next week, we're going to tackle attachments.

MATT BAIN: [56:00] Letting go of them specifically.

DANIEL SIH: [56:04] Letting go of attachments, we’ll start to get pragmatic and practical, tackling how can you actually, well, let go of the things that kind of hook you in the first place.

MATT BAIN: [56:09] That's right. Decouple. It's another way of phrasing it.

DANIEL SIH: [56:13] That sounds good. All right. Well, I'm going to decouple us Matt Bain from this podcast. But until next time, make space.

MATT BAIN: [56:19] Yeah, keep on maintaining that space.

NARRATOR: [56:25] The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL SIH: [56:30] This episode is sponsored by the Spacemakers Dojo. If you're a busy professional who feels constantly behind, the Dojo is a place to slow down, think deeply and make space alongside others. For a limited time, new members can get 12 months for the price of six with the code PODCAST25. Find details at spacemakers.au/dojo.

NARRATOR: [56:44] The Spacemakers. With Danniel Sih and Matt Bain.