Daniel Sih
[00:00] Hey there, Spacemakers. I'm Daniel Sih, here with my good friend and co-host, Matt Bain. Welcome to the fourth season of The Spacemakers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life. This is The Spacemakers. This season, we go deeper, challenging our constant self-improvement culture and what it's doing to us. It's a pod course designed to help you step off the busy treadmill, let go of the constant need for more, and make space for a life that is truly enough. Thanks to our generous sponsors, Bulk Nutrients and Fuller's Bookshop, from our beautiful home state of Tasmania, the island of creativity, and of course, spacemaking.

Narrator
The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

Daniel Sih
Welcome back everyone to The Spacemakers podcast, a podcast to help you make space for an intentional, meaningful life. [01:00] My name's Daniel Sih and I'm here with my great friend and co-host Matt Bain. Welcome.

Matt Bain
[01:05] It's great to be back, Dan.

Daniel Sih
[01:07] It's great to be back. It's been a bit of time, hasn't it? Six or seven months, I believe.

Matt Bain
[01:12] Six or seven months.

Daniel Sih
[01:13] And we've had a few challenges getting here, but we had a topic that we are really, really interested in, or we are interested in, and we've taken a bit of time to prep, research and think about how to make it really work.

Matt Bain
[01:22] You can't rush great art.

Daniel Sih
[01:26] Can't rush great art. We're hoping it will be a fantastic season. So this season is about how to make space for a life that is enough. Enough is the topic and we want to talk about what it looks like to be enough, to have enough, to have a sense where you don't want to add more and more and more just to be enough. Um. And it's going to be a great topic.[01:50] So look, if you haven't heard the podcast before, my name's Daniel Sih, I'm a productivity author, a coach, trainer, speaker. My first book, Spacemaker, How to Unplug, Unwind and Think Clearly in the Digital Age was about how to rethink our use of technology and make space in our busy frantic world. I've written a book, Raising Tech Healthy Humans to help parents navigate the complexities of social media in the digital age. But we are passionate about helping people slow down, think deeply, [02:19] and make space for what truly matters. I'm here with my great friend, Matt. So Matt is a trainer at Spacemakers. You're a coach and a really good friend, incredibly well read and offer an incredible amount into this space. So I'm really grateful that you're here for another season.

Matt Bain
[02:34] I'm glad to be here and happy to be bundled as always, Dan.

Daniel Sih
[02:38] That's a throwback to a couple of early seasons.

[02:41] I know, you know, it's just to make sure people go back to the last season, which is great. But yeah, this topic, [02:49] is something that's been on our mind for quite a while. And it came out of a conversation I had after a keynote, actually, and I was speaking about how to unplug and make space and how to reframe your digital habits. And at the end of that talk, I had a conversation with someone in the audience. We'll call him Tom. Okay, so Tom talked about his work and he said, I understand the need to disconnect.

[03:15] You know, he was on social media a lot and felt like he spent too much time on screens and liked some of my practices that I'd shared. He started to talk about his work and he said, look, I have a question and or a question or a conundrum potentially. And he said, look at work, we were given all this wellbeing education, you know, we've been taught breath work, which has been really helpful.

[03:42] We've been taught about our diet. We've been given motivation around exercise and really encouraged to actually take care of ourselves. But then he said, I'm asked to do stuff in my home life. I'm asked to do stuff in other areas of my life. He said, in the past, I used to just be a dad and I used to just go to work, pay the bills. And that's what was required of me.

[04:04] But he said, now I'm asked to eat chia seeds and care for my microbiome and have cold plungers and intermittent fasting. I'm meant to have the right supplements and then have the right hairstyle and skincare. Like he just is like, this is just, he said, all this wellbeing is killing me. Or we might frame all this self help is killing me. And that, that line really stood out to you, didn't it?

Matt Bain
[04:38] Yeah. So the parties that I go to, my own experience, it's that kind of conversation that we're having. The overwhelm because of the pressure and the endlessly high ceiling for self-optimization.

Daniel Sih
[04:50] I'm just struck that you get invited to parties. [04:52] I don't anymore, but anyway. Ah, but it is, it's that exhaustion that we see around us where we're asked to do more and be more and optimize and add more to our lives. All these fantastic things that make sense, like cold showers and eating kimchi and exercising. I mean, we're a big believer in caring for ourself and at the same time, it can feel overwhelming and exhausting.

[05:02] So how do we navigate a culture where we're constantly optimizing our self help? How do we navigate the good things that we might want to do without feeling like it's just another burden that we have to add to our spaceless lives where we feel overwhelmed?

[05:29] And overloaded and now have to care for ourselves and others and do all these other things that we can't possibly keep up with.

Matt Bain
[05:35] Yeah, that's the challenge that we want to examine and address this season. But of course, Dan, like the irony is not lost on us that we are, we have been now three season long term slingers of self optimization. So we've talked about the diet, the exercise, the protocols, like the routines. So it's just probably just worth naming that upright that we are completely self aware of that and the fact that we kind of addressing that and that we're seeing some of the drawbacks with it is testimony, hopefully to as much as I hate this word, our authenticity and the reality of us being humans, that change evolve probably, you know, to some degree when I look back on some of their past views and add a bit of nuance to that. Just, you know, viewers be aware. We are aware of that.

Daniel Sih
[06:18] Absolutely. And I mean, I think this is the heart of why we do our podcasts. We want to learn and grow and explore topics that we're not a hundred percent on top of ourselves, right?

[06:27] That's why, like I mean, in terms of our past season, if you haven't followed the podcast, season one was about how to retrain your mind and manage digital distractions and the loss of attention that we're experiencing as a society. And you and I wrestled with that stuff. We wrestled with the midlife reset. We do wrestle with what it looks like when you hit your forties and fifties and you have to rethink and redo the habits that set you up in the first part of life, which was the second season.

[06:55] And last season was about how to get unstuck in a domain of life one small step at a time again. You and I have wrestled quite honestly about the things we're struggling with. So hopefully this is in that vein at least. I mean, again, I don't like the term authenticity, but this is something you and I genuinely care about and we're interested in. How can you care for yourself and how can we be, let's say, productivity or even self-help guys and yet challenge the whole self-help movement, even our own stuff?

[07:24] So this will be our anti-productivity or anti-self-help podcast as part of the Spacemakers.

Daniel Sih
[07:38] Let's talk about the Huberman effect.

Matt Bain
[07:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Huberman effect. [07:43] So we couldn't, we couldn't come up with a better example, I suppose, of how something that starts off so good and is so ambitious and so noble and has aspirations to bring life and help optimize someone's potential, whilst at the same time, because of its sheer, I suppose, volume of all those things that you could do to optimize may have the counter effect of actually being exhausting.

[08:06] So we call this like the Huberman effect. This stems from, as and again, if you I mean, tuning into this podcast, so chances are there's a very good chance that you're aware of Dr. Andrew Huberman and the great work that he's done with the Huberman Lab. So a podcast that kicked off in 2021. He's a Stanford neuro, a professor in neuroscience, and also a really good presenter as of 2023, I think was like top 10 podcasts in the world.

[08:34] It's a long form podcast, where he brings on guests who are experts in their respective field, usually with a science, whether that's a hard science or a social science background, and talks to them about based on their realm of expertise, how you can best optimize a particular facet of your life, whether that's sleep or whether that's hormones or whether that's exercise, like the whole kit and caboodle, how to effectively like better your life.

[09:02] But he's particularly famous for his protocols, right? So I mean, I've listened to a lot of Huberman podcasts where there'll be his science behind and then protocol for alcohol or protocol for sleep or protocol for, you know, different kinds of drugs that can kind of improve your health and happiness. So a lot of his, you know, most popular podcasts are a series of protocols based on really strong science to help you improve and better your life. So self-help and wellbeing.

Daniel Sih
[09:30] Yeah. Which is, you know, I suppose why we want to talk about Huberman as one of the examples where something that is great can also add burden in our self-help culture. Because each of these, let's say each of these protocols slash recommendations individually are great, right?

[09:48] So again, like steeped and grounded in hard science, demonstrated results in terms of bettering people. But we've compiled a list. So here they are, right? And I'm just going to read them, I'm just going to read them out because I couldn't possibly quote them from memory because I haven't done enough of his memory enhancing protocols. So I'm just going to read this out to give you like the full effect.

[09:56] So okay, so here they are. So number one, get two to 10 minutes of sunlight within 30 to 60 minutes of waking.

Daniel Sih
[10:02] Well, that's impossible in Hobart. So keep going.

Matt Bain
[10:04] I've already failed the one this morning. Number two, delay caffeine intake for 90 to 120 minutes after waking. And don't have any coffee between one and a half and two hours. So there's caffeine protocol.

Matt Bain
[10:15] Yep. Failed that this morning.

[10:17] Number three, exercise in the morning on an empty stomach. [10:20] I didn't do that, but Dan did that this morning.

Daniel Sih
[10:23] I did take that, but I'm grumpy because I got up too early. He's already told me.

Matt Bain
[10:28] Number four, exercise 150 to 180 minutes a week. So that's a combo of zone two cardio plus strength. So strength, resistance, session three to four times.

[10:38] Number five, resistance training must be close to failure over again, four sessions per week.

[10:42] Number six, cold exposure. So 11 minutes. That's 11 minutes, not 10, not nine, 11 minutes a week of deliberate, not random cold. That's ice baths, showers. So if you fall into an ice bath, it doesn't count. It's got to be deliberate.

[10:58] Number seven, intermittent fasting, eat within an eight to 10 hour window.

[11:03] Number eight, avoid food two to three hours before bed.

[11:06] Number nine, no alcohol. That's in bold. No alcohol or absolute max two drinks a week.

Daniel Sih
He's a big believer in no alcohol. [11:14] Yep.

Matt Bain
[11:15] Number 10, supplements. You'll be taking regular Omega 3s, creatine, your magnesium, your vitamin D.

[11:22] Number 11, on top of the regular mainstream supplements, we've got all these for testosterone support. This is, I'm going to mangle these names. Ashwagandha, Tongkat Ali and Fadogia agrestis.

Daniel Sih
[11:35] I might one day take them, but I'll never be able to say them.

Matt Bain
[11:38] I was assuming you're already on them.

[11:40] Number 12, eat 1.6 to 2.2 grams of protein per kilo of body weight. That's pretty common.

[11:48] Number 13, journal before bed to improve sleep onset.

[11:51] Number 14, use NSDR, non-sleep deep rest protocols like guided meditations during the day.

[11:57] And number 15, prioritize quality relationships, because after doing the preceding 14, you're going to have time for quality relationships. So prioritize quality relationships and cognitive focus daily.

Daniel Sih
[12:11] And these are just 15 we've chosen. We could have picked another 15 or another 30 from Huberman. So again, individually, they are fantastic. You know, it's great to sleep. It's great to do cold immersion therapy. It's great to intermittently fast, you know, it's good to have supplements. It's good to build relationships. Like in and of themselves, each of these protocols makes a lot of sense.

[12:35] Yet, gosh, if I listed those things, just those 15 as a tick list for how I should live my life on a daily basis, I feel pretty overwhelmed and I'm pretty good at health and fitness.

Matt Bain
[12:48] Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Sih
[12:49] I don't know. What do you, how do you feel when you look at that?

Matt Bain
[12:52] Like a failure.

Daniel Sih
[12:54] Yeah.

Matt Bain
[12:55] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[12:59] Like there's no way. And I think like, you know, I'm old enough and self-aware enough to know that I could do, I could probably hit all those 15, you know, like a couple of times in a row. It'd take a lot of effort to achieve that. It'd take an immense amount of effort that would eventually burn out to maintain that.

[13:18] So even if you manage to build the habits up and practice them, essentially, I mean, just because you get older, right? Well, life happens.

Daniel Sih
[13:26] Yeah.

Matt Bain
[13:27] Well, yeah. Like there's all that as well in terms of, you know, like the other responsibilities that aren't mentioned or don't kind of come under those 15 that need time to deal with.

[13:38] I guess what I find particularly potentially God awful about a list like that is that, again, for someone like me, even if I hit that, I wouldn't be able to enjoy it because I'd be faced with the existential terror of knowing it was only a matter of time before I failed and couldn't maintain it any longer. So I couldn't actually enjoy it.

[14:01] And I kind of think that's the feeling that we often get. You know, I talked about this podcast season, the topic on LinkedIn before we launched this podcast, just to get people's feelings and thoughts. And a lot of the responses were, yeah, I'm exhausted. Like I just can't add another thing to my life. I always feel guilty. I feel bad.

[14:20] And I think the hidden message or the maybe the unspoken or probably unintentional message of Huberman, I would say, is that by promoting protocol after protocol based on science, which shows this is what you need to do and this is what you must do to be a healthy, happy human, well then you're kind of setting people up with a list of rules and regulations or guidelines or protocols that they just can't keep up with.

[14:44] I suppose you're almost, the unspoken message is you need to be in control. You need to stay young. You need to be fit. You need to do this and that and this and that to be an okay human, in order to be enough.

[14:56] And I think that unspoken message is spoken in so many facets of our life from time management to relationships, to work, to health and wellbeing. We just have this overwhelming sense that we are not enough and it sucks. Like it's, it's really hard. And I think people are tired.

Daniel Sih
[15:18] Yeah. I like that. To me, it sounds as if protocols like these do at heart demonstrate or send a message around what it means to be human.

[15:29] And I think this is too high. This is an unrealistic take on what it means to be human. And there's a cost, there's an opportunity cost, even if you managed to keep all the Huberman protocols, there'll be other areas of your life that will fall off because it takes so much energy to spend so much time on your health and happiness.

[15:52] And look again, you and I have part of the problem. Like for a bit of a laugh, I thought I would kind of, you know, put into ChatGPT my own kind of, you know, tell us what our own protocols are from the last few seasons of the podcast.

[16:04] And, you know, if you want to be a Spacemaker, you need to do a lot as well, apparently. And this is what we've shared over the last three seasons. You have to turn off your alerts and unplug from social media to be enough. You have to replace distraction with high quality leisure activities. So not just, you know, lazing around on Netflix, you need to have high quality sports activity, even brewing beer to be enough.

[16:24] No more than two drinks a day. Oh sorry, a week. You need to, no, you can brew the beer, you're just not allowed to drink it.

[16:32] You need to bundle your habits like walking with a friend or podcasting with a friend. You need to practice silence. You need to time block your calendar and set pre-commitments in work and life. You need to work from your strengths, not your weaknesses. You need to develop willpower and pathways thinking to achieve your goals. You need to build regular rhythms with friends, lest they fade away. And you need to break down big goals into tiny habits. And you need to not just chase goals, but you even need to chase the goal of the goal.

[16:59] Now again, I laugh at that, but it's terrifying, the idea that we might be contributing to the problem of self help exhaustion. Because our intention is to help people and to help them slow down and think deeply and intentionally about how they live. But we also don't want people feeling like if they don't do this or if they don't do that, or if they don't add this extra thing to their life, well then they're not enough in work or life. I would hate for people to think that.

[17:27] And yet that's where we end up in the environment of consumptive thought and exhaustion that we have. So that's the problem. And we want to talk about solutions over the next nine episodes.

[17:44] So look, let's finish with a quote from Byron Katie, author and speaker. I like this one. If you want real control, drop the illusion of control. Let life have you. It does anyway.

So we always have 30 seconds or we have a moment of silence on The Spacemakers podcast simply to reflect on the content. Because I think there is too much noise in this world and it's important to reflect on what you hear and actually apply some of it in your own life. So have a moment to think.

Matt Bain
[18:24] Like putting those, because that quote particularly, actually hearing it read out, it does strike me that could be misinterpreted and perhaps it's easy to kind of take that as an extreme as well. So if I put that quote side by side with the Huberman protocols, I suppose I get like two almost extremes.

[18:44] And I think again, both these convey an extreme take on a particular vision of humanity. And I think the Huberman protocols at its extreme is all about to be human is to really be in complete control. I think the other quote means to be human is to understand you've got to relinquish almost all, ultimately all control.

[18:59] And I guess like what we're advocating is something perhaps in the middle. Well, or even more paradoxical, but it's actually both ends at the same time. And that looks like the middle. So we'll talk through that as we go through. Um, yeah, let's have some silence, unpack whether you agree or disagree with anything we've said and think about how it applies to your life.

Daniel Sih
[19:39] Hopefully that was a useful space for people to hold and think. Content plate. I certainly thought and contemplated and I'm still, you know, I'm still trying to put those two visions of humanity side by side. You've got the Huberman protocol and we've got that quote that you gave about really to be human is to have like no control.

[19:59] Shall I read it again?

Matt Bain
[20:01] Do that.

Daniel Sih
[20:02] You want me to read it?

Matt Bain
[20:03] I can't find it. Did you say Cattell or Cattle?

Daniel Sih
[20:07] Katie, what I'm wearing, Katie. If you want real control, drop the illusion of control. Let life have you. It does anyway. So if you want real control, drop the illusion of control, let life have you. It does anyway.

[20:24] So I use the term like balance because I saw like a kind of healthy middle between that version of what it means to be alive and the protocols, the Huberman protocols over here, which is going to be about complete control. I think you use the term tension. So tell me more about that.

Matt Bain
[20:45] Tension or I suppose, even paradox. I mean, I see most of life as a paradox and paradox meaning you hold two equal and opposite things in tension, and then you find reality.

[20:58] So, you know, the classic is when I was in year 10 in history and we pulled out a map of like extreme fascism and extreme communism, which is meant to be extreme left and right. And then realize that actually on the extremes, they ended up looking the same. And somehow it's the tension in the middle that leads to a healthy balance.

[21:17] Or in physics, I remember, you know, light is, I think a particle and it's also a wave, but it's neither. If you only look at it as a wave, it doesn't make sense. If you only look at it as a particle, it doesn't make sense. But if it's both, and which it can't be, well, then you actually find out the truth and the true qualities of light.

[21:35] I'm not a scientist, so maybe science has moved on past, you know, 20 years ago. But the idea that actually sometimes truth is when you hold paradoxically opposing ideas together and in between the tension of them, you find reality, that's appealed to me a lot. And I see that a lot in how we live our life as opposed to the alternative, which is let's just compromise on everything and find a mundane middle, a boring middle, which everyone, where everyone compromises and everyone loses.

[21:57] So I often think when we talk about balance, I don't think about let's find that mundane middle. Let's actually find the ability to maturely hold both extremes and somehow navigate the tension between both. And I think that's what we're talking about here, that if you want to be enough, have enough, but also not give up and say, hey, let's just, you know, throw our arms in the air and just say, you do you, follow your heart, which doesn't lead to a healthy, happy humanity.

[22:26] Well, then you need the tension of being able to constantly build healthy habits and practices into your life, let's say Huberman style, and also recognize the foolishness of that and how, what an illusion control is and to continue practicing letting go and relinquishing control and forgiving and some of the practices of gratitude we'll talk about later on. Um, holding that tension, I suppose.

Daniel Sih
[22:52] Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. At least that's how I see it.

[22:56] Yeah. Maybe an unformed thought, but what about yourself from the conversation?

Matt Bain
[23:00] Okay. I've still got responsibility. I've got free will. I've got some degree of control, but I need to be intentional about how I use that control. And I need to be intentional and aware of the fact that it's got limitations anyway. And I also need to be aware of the opportunity costs.

[23:16] So I could try to live out these 15 protocols every day, but if I did, I could still get sick and die young. And it would probably mean that I don't have the time to spend the quality time to spend with people in my life that I would like to ideally. That's the opportunity cost.

Daniel Sih
[23:32] We've opened up a can of worms and that's the intention of episode one of season four. We'd like you to start thinking about this for yourself because we don't know the answers. We do know that this is a surprise. We do know this is a challenge for us and for many of us, this exhaustion and this overwhelm.

[23:56] And we know that there's something in this space around navigating the balance and tension between control and letting go, the inner life and the outer life and how to actually navigate it. So that's what we're going to explore in this season.

[24:11] But let's finish like we always do with a practical exercise, not to add more, but to help you do something practical from this information because it's what you do that counts.

Matt Bain
[24:21] So our activity this week is inspired by the work of Anne-Laure Le Cunff, who's the author of that book I know you're a big fan of Tiny Experiments.

Daniel Sih
[24:29] Yes, a ripper.

Matt Bain
[24:30] Yeah, a ripper. So here's what we'd like you to do. We'd like you to take the idea of instead of improving or adding on to something that is already valuable in your life, we just want you to use her term persist in it.

Daniel Sih
I might read a quote from her. Is that all right?

Matt Bain
[24:45] Yeah, do.

Daniel Sih
[24:46] She said, in a culture obsessed with more, choosing to persist is radical. Ah, I like that.

[24:52] Yeah, that's good.

Matt Bain
[24:54] And just to be clear, I kind of take her to mean by persist what I probably use the word maintain. Is that right?

Daniel Sih
[24:59] Yeah.

Matt Bain
[25:00] So just like maintain something. Maintain something you're already doing, not add to it, not optimize, not build on it. Just simply say, well enough, this habit works. Well, this activity is fine.

[25:11] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't have to add to it. So not advocating this week, dropping back anything, just persisting, just maintaining. So pick an area of life where you'd be tempted to try to do more or improve or optimize and instead just persist at its current level.

[25:31] So we've got some concrete examples for you. So just some ideas. So don't add a new supplement to your existing supplement regime. Don't try to further optimize your sleep. Don't try to increase your running distance. Don't cut back further on coffee.

[25:47] Thank you, God. Don't improve your relationships. Don't optimize your workflow. Instead, just hold on, maintain. Just be steady and say, good job. That's enough.

Daniel Sih
[25:59] Yeah. So look, I'll read this full quote from Anne-Laure Le Cunff again from Tiny Experiments. She says, why do so many people blaze past the obvious option to simply stay the course? Every time I decide to simply persist with my current direction, it feels like taking a stand. We've been conditioned to think of enjoying forward momentum as coasting or taking our foot off the gas.

[26:16] And what should be seen as a healthy pushback against the cult of more is frowned upon. So let's celebrate persisting, not adding more and simply saying, well done.

Matt Bain
[26:28] Ah, that's the activity.

Daniel Sih
[26:30] Yeah. Hopefully that's liberating for people.

Matt Bain
[26:33] It's a sweet relief.

Daniel Sih
[26:35] So we are really excited to journey with you again for season four of The Spacemakers. I hope you can stick with us and learn to reflect on how you might shift your habits by doing less, not more.

[26:52] We're going to introduce the AWARE framework next episode where we teach how to actually put in practices, the types of things you need to slow down and be enough.

[27:01] If you like The Spacemakers and you followed us for a while, we'd love to get a review. Reviews are so helpful, particularly on, let's say, Apple Podcasts. So a few lines would be very, very helpful. We'd really love that.

[27:16] Share this with your friends if you think this will help them because having conversations with others around this podcast is a great way for you to learn and grow.

[27:26] And next episode, join us, we're going to talk about 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman. We're going to talk about finitude and what it looks like to confront your mortality, but hopefully in a lighthearted way. And we're going to help you think about what it looks like to be finite in a world of infinite possibilities and give you a practical activity to move forward.

[27:48] Until next time, make space.

Matt Bain
Maintain space.

Narrator
The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

Daniel Sih
Thanks to our generous sponsors Bulk Nutrients and Fuller's Bookshop, from our beautiful home state of Tasmania, the island of creativity and of course, spacemaking.

Narrator
[28:02] If you feel busy, overloaded and struggling to keep up, the Spacemakers Dojo is here to help. This online community is for busy professionals like you, dedicated to making space together. Dive into the Dojo to regain control of your time and make space in a supportive, accountable community. Visit spacemakers.au forward slash dojo to find out more.