DANIEL: [00:00:00] Hey there, space makers. I'm Daniel Sih, joined by my good friend and co-host Matt Bain. This is the third season of The Space Makers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life more than a podcast. This podcast will help you get unstuck in one area of life. One step at a time by helping you shift the way you live and work big thanks to our sponsor.

DANIEL: Bulk Nutrients. Enjoy a 5% discount on protein powders and health supplements for orders over $45. At bulk nutrients.com au just enter the code space makers,

VOICEOVER: the space makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Space Makers Podcast. A podcast or podcast to help you make space to get unstuck, free, surprising second act.

DANIEL: And I'm here with my one and only co-host, the Gandolf, to my Frodo, the Batman, to my robin, the Pamela to my Hasselhoff the one and only Matt. Bain. [00:01:00] Thanks. Thanks Dan. That's quite the intro. It is.

MATT: Yeah. I had

DANIEL: to get chat GP to help me with that one. Yeah, yeah. I'm still trying to work out.

MATT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MATT: Okay. Now I've got the Pamela of the hassle half. I was going Pamela to Tommy Lee, but that also makes sense. Okay, great. Okay. But it's good to be here. Yeah. It's great to be, and on a serious night, we are talking about how to make space to get unstuck. Yeah, we are. And before we get that, I just wanna say thanks for the text that you sent me during the week as well, saying that you really appreciate doing a podcast.

MATT: Good. Yeah, man, that, that meant so much. It had heart, it had emojis. Yeah.

DANIEL: Yeah. All right. If you missed the reference. Go back to last week. Go week. Alright, so Matt, we've all heard the expression, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Now it sounds sensible, you know, trying hard is a good thing. You know, we need grit, we need determination.

DANIEL: Yeah. Nothing wrong with a bit of perseverance and persistence. Perseverance and persistence is a good thing. But what happens if you get. Stuck in an era of life. You know, maybe you hit that chiasm, which we talked about in episode one, where you feel like you're heading in one direction and then [00:02:00] suddenly you feel stuck.

DANIEL: You dunno the way forward. Mm. And, and what if you actually did give it your best? You know, what if you did have some grit and determination and things just didn't work out the way you expected? What if you changed or the world changed and things didn't work out the way you expected, or, or what if you just had some bad luck, someone kind of screwed you over and.

DANIEL: Things didn't work out. Your way

MATT: sounds like that'd be really discouraging, disheartening, even perhaps hopeless position to find yourself in. Yeah. You've given it everything and there's nothing

DANIEL: left and you haven't succeeded and you're still feeling stuck. Now I know that that's happened in my life, you know, definitely not everything has worked out.

DANIEL: I'm sure that that would be the same with you. So motivation, willpower, kind of grit can get you so far, but when you feel stuck, you need more than that. And that's what we're gonna talk about. We're gonna talk about Schneider's Hope theory. Mm-hmm. We're gonna talk about. This idea of way power or pathways thinking and why trying harder isn't always the best way when you're stuck.

DANIEL: In [00:03:00] fact, sometimes it can just leave you digging a deeper hole.

MATT: Yeah.

DANIEL: Gotcha. Okay. That's what we're talking about, Jay.

MATT: Good to know when, when those kids in primary school called me a try hard, they were all right. It wasn't a good thing. Good tonight.

MATT: So just a, a brief recap, we've got a framework that we've been going through to help people get unstuck, and we've called it snappily enough the shift 'cause framework. We wanna help people shift the way they work and get unstuck. And get unstuck. So a super quick, um, summary of what that is. Again, S stands for select a domain.

MATT: So again, we've really been pressing people. Just select one area of life that you want to get unstuck in. Not two, not three, just one. And then h we talked about harnessing your strengths. So that was last episode and the episode before that. So again, that's our, um, trying to kind of combat our natural default to look, to look at our weaknesses and focus on what's not working.

MATT: Instead, we say, no, no, no. Look at what your strengths are and [00:04:00] what is working. In those particular domains where you feel stuck. And today we are looking at I, which is imagine multiple path. Mm. So more on that soon. But very, very excited about where we're going. And then we've got F, which will be next episode, which is forge ahead with action.

MATT: So again, there's a place of contemplation and reflection, but eventually you've gotta do something. Rubber has to meet road. And lastly, we, we, we bring it all together with the big T for travel alongside others. 'cause sustainable change is. Best

DANIEL: Incomp. Mm-hmm. That sounds good. And so we always reflect on what we did because you, and actually you and I want to get unstuck as well.

DANIEL: You know, even in the second episode we talked about an area where we genuinely feel stuck in life mm-hmm. Where we each feel stuck. Yes. And so you and I are hoping that this podcast will help us as well. Yeah. And if it doesn't, we'll just delete all the res and go listen Toman. But, um. Yeah. Matt, why don't you describe what we asked people to do last week?

MATT: Yeah, so we asked people to spend some time probably around about five minutes a day everyday journaling. And we [00:05:00] went, you know, old school pen and paper journaling and specifically we, we wanted people to, to kind of journal, um, about the area or domain of life where they feel stuck with hoping to get unstuck.

MATT: So look at that, but instead, again, of concentrating on what's wrong. We were asking people to focus on what we call like the bright spots, so the exceptions, if you like. So. We really stress that even if you think, and it's easy to think generally these big, huge like generalizations, this is all a mess. If you reflect long enough, you will stumble upon exceptions where within that domain things have been okay, like good enough.

MATT: So ask people, identify those exceptions

DANIEL: and it's the first idea. Ever thought of this, you know, we talked about the cosma that, you know, you get into this place where everything is shifting and the way forward is not the way forward, but. It's not the way back either. Mm-hmm. You need a new map and everything's foggy.

DANIEL: I like that idea that actually we started really wide and then you actually narrow it down to what's the particular area you most wanna shift. Yeah. Even if you feel like yeah, there's lots of areas in your life mm-hmm. That need to change. And then from there we're saying, well, what's something that is [00:06:00] already working?

DANIEL: Yeah. In that domain. I think that hopefully has been a helpful activity. Yeah. And to write it down.

MATT: Yeah. So identify it like you said, record it and hopefully

DANIEL: that'll build some traction.

MATT: Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: So, um, how did you go. You were talking about the fact that you are struggling with, well, not just calendar management, but overcommitment mm-hmm.

DANIEL: And saying yes to people and then letting them down. Yeah. And that being a bit of a pattern. Yeah. Isn't that right? Batman. No problem.

MATT: Yeah. No guilty as charged. Yeah. Yeah. So I, um, I journaled, um, and I found. I think the closest thing that I had to athe, like when it came to a bright spot was those days where I'd had either intentionally or it just came up as a, you know, like, like a nice bit of providence.

MATT: I actually had fat in my day, so, um, so I try to do time blocking, you know, which. Obviously you're aware of, and that is where you pretty much give every minute of your working day some kind of job. Yeah. And my risk is to fill up [00:07:00] every single minute with a hard and fast commitment. And that generally, like leads to me getting overcommitted because again, life happens around that.

MATT: And so the, the, the paper plan you have never quite matches the reality of the day. So my bright spot was those couple of days where for some reason or another I hadn't actually, um, I hadn't given every single thing. A minute. So I actually had some fat built in. Yeah. This is a margin,

DANIEL: essentially. It's a margin.

DANIEL: Yeah. It's, I like the idea, it's a margin, um, margin and a buffer essentially. If you're driving, you need what, two seconds stopping distance. 'cause um, if you go closer than two seconds, it's not, you don't margin. If they break, you crash. Right. Yeah. So you just, you you're kind of saying from a calendar perspective, there hasn't been that buffer or margin in your life.

MATT: Yeah. That's just a lot of crashes. Just a lot of crashes. Just a lot of rear-ending. Just a lot of rear ending. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So whether it was, again, intentional that day or happened just to kind of build in some buffer, or if things were suddenly like taken off my, my, my, my calendar for the day, so I was suddenly presented with about 80% that was so much better.

MATT: Like that was just so much better. That was both like in terms of [00:08:00] how I felt about it, and also the time and attention that I could give the people, particularly the people, all the tasks. Hmm. That I had allocated. Awesome. Does that make

DANIEL: sense? I love it. That's a great example of how do you reproduce that?

DANIEL: That sounds good.

MATT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's the thing, I think it is sustainable and reproducible

DANIEL: and it's not changing everything. It's changing one small thing. Yeah. Well, you know, a few small things. It's a, that, that will build up over time. Yeah. Nice. So mine was about wrestling with kind of the inner life, my religiosity, I suppose you'd say.

DANIEL: And the fact that, you know, a lot has changed in terms of my own expression of faith. And community. Mm-hmm. What do I do with that and how do I navigate that? And um, it's interesting 'cause I've, you know, one of the things I've really wrestled with is even though I'm kind of taking a step back and doing less than I used to and giving myself the permission to not be so hard on myself, I suppose in terms of expressions of faith and practices that don't feel like they're working like they used to, I'm still being quite concerned about my kids.

DANIEL: 'cause I want to, you know, model. The type of values and faith that I want them to have, and I'm in a different place than [00:09:00] them. You know, they're young, I'm old. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm, I'm wrestling with undoing some old beliefs or reframing, but they're building. Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah. And so that's been a real concern and a weight for me.

DANIEL: And it's interesting as, you know, as things turn out, I, as I was starting to journal and as I was thinking about these things, I had a conversation. I mean, I think the night before or day before with a friend, and I was just talking about where I'm at, and they actually asked a really, which I, I thought was a bit of a bizarre question.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. They said, oh, do you do anything? Like, do you say grace? Mm. You know, do you say thanks before dinner essentially? And for me it was like, oh, that's such a dumb question. Like, of course I say grace, and it was so funny when I reflected on, I'm like, oh, really? What I'm saying is, of course there are bright spots.

MATT: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

DANIEL: And I'm just not focusing on them. I'm focusing on what I'm not doing. Yeah. Rather than what I. Doing. Mm-hmm. So when I write stuff down, yeah, of course we, we say thanks at the dinner table before we eat. I still catch up with my church community in some format most Sundays. Um. You know, I still read the Bible.

DANIEL: I pray every day. Like it's not like I do nothing. I just don't do what I used to do. Yeah, [00:10:00] yeah. Sure, sure. And I can really build on that. Yeah. So that's been helpful to realize, oh, just don't be so stressed.

MATT: Yeah.

DANIEL: Things are gonna be fine.

MATT: Yeah.

DANIEL: And focus more on what you're doing well rather than what you're not doing anymore.

MATT: Hmm. Interesting. So even like you being so aware of strengths, I guess, and, and also like super aware of, um, how um, bad is stronger than good. Even like, despite all that, it was easy for you to kind of like miss those price points.

DANIEL: Well, it still is easy, you know? Yeah. I mean, like we said before, this is a reframing and you need what, six or 10 positive reinforcements for everyone.

DANIEL: Negative. Mm-hmm. And so I, I still in my head think, oh, I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this. Yeah. And this has changed and I'm struggling with this. Yeah. But I also need to consciously practice what I'm journaling. Yes. Yeah. And hopefully that'll be a journey. Yeah.

DANIEL: Alright. So Matt, [00:11:00] um, you know, we started with Richard Roar in one of the seasons, then we went to powder Finger. I knew that was a slippery slope. Yeah, I knew it. So now. We're gonna start reading children's books and quoting from kids' books. 'cause this is, this is the quality of our podcast. Not the quality of our audience, not the quality of our audience, maybe you and I.

DANIEL: But there's this awesome book called Stuck by Oliver Jeffers, which was one of my favorite books that I read to my children when they were younger. And I think it beautifully describes the problem of doing the same thing again and again with more. Effort. Yeah, just trying harder. Okay. Trying harder.

DANIEL: So I'm actually gonna read the book for those YouTube watches. You can actually see the book, but it'll work. So let me start. There's a picture of Floyd, a young boy with a kite, and there's a big tree in the background. It all began when Floyd's Kite became stuck in a tree. He tried pulling and swinging, but it wouldn't come unstuck.

DANIEL: The trouble really began when he threw his favorite shoe to knock the kite loose. And that got stuck too. Now I [00:12:00] won't keep going, but essentially Floyd then tries to fix the problem of the kite being stuck in the tree by throwing his other shoe to get the other one down, and the shoe gets stuck and then ends up throwing his cat, and then he throws a lot of different things in the tree.

DANIEL: Eventually he ends up getting a ladder. And he goes up to the tree and he says, this will solve the problem. And he throws the ladder up in the tree, and guess what? The ladder gets stuck. And by the end of this book, there's a ridiculous amount of crazy things in the tree and so much in there that the kite happens to fall out and he gets his kite back.

DANIEL: But you know, there's like policemen and whales and houses in the tree. That's great. But, um, I love the idea that actually even getting a ladder

mm-hmm.

DANIEL: He didn't actually use it differently. Yeah, yeah. He just decided to throw it off in the tree. Yeah, and I think that's a great analogy of what it looks like to do the same thing again and again.

DANIEL: You could like just

MATT: in sub 30 seconds, think of, I think plenty of examples, whether it's in your own life or someone else's life, where again, [00:13:00] it's just been, if I just persist, if I just persevere for, just try harder, for just kind of hanging in there, then something is somehow, almost magically, and that's what, it becomes almost superstitious, right?

MATT: Mm-hmm. Magically. The result's gonna change. Mm-hmm. And then someone else comes along and says, Hey look, have you ever thought about approaching again? Same, same goal, same aim, but just approaching it radically different. It turns out I get there and it's like, oh wow. I've been

DANIEL: so, I've been stuck in this lane.

DANIEL: Even in business, I find it so hard to know the difference between what you might call a sunk cost. Yeah. Where you're trying a strategy, you hope it works, you pour out lots of time and energy into it. You know, I might release an e-learning course or something that just doesn't sell, you know, when is it a sunk cost and I have to give up.

DANIEL: The effort and say, okay, I'm not gonna dig a hole here. I'm gonna dig a hole somewhere else and try different strategies versus when you just keep pouring more into it, hoping for a different outcome. Yeah. So it's not necessarily easy to know when it's a strategy problem and when it's a problem of just not having given it enough time.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. Yep. But there definitely comes a point where you have to pull up stumps and think, how could I approach this differently? [00:14:00] Certainly throwing up a ladder into the tree was not a good idea. And so we wanna talk about, the idea of Hope theory and how it speaks to this space of not doing the same thing with more effort, but how it teaches us to try a different strategy.

DANIEL: Excellent.

MATT: All right, Dan, so I would love to hear you give us the Guide to Hope Theory. Mm. Like, like what's that all about? I've heard of optimism, I've heard of hope. I've heard of optimism. I've heard of theory, but I've never heard of Hope Theory.

DANIEL: I know it's actually research, so how about that? No. Also hope Theory comes from a guy called Rick Schneider.

DANIEL: He was a professor of psychology in the 1990s. He's since passed away, but his, you know, his research and his theories on hope as a psychological phenomenon mm-hmm. Have been super, super helpful. At least have helped me and speak directly into this kind of stuckness problem that we're talking about.

DANIEL: So, you know, he created, [00:15:00] apparently he called it the Hope Lab. It was like a, a lab in Kansas. So, I don't know, that sounds a little bit mystical already, but, um, basically he devoted, you know, I think decades to studying hope and in particular, what leads. To people feeling like they have a sense of hope. So according to Schneider.

DANIEL: If you wanna have hope, you need three specific things. You need goal directed thinking, you need willpower and you need way power. He didn't use those terms. He used the term agency thinking. Yeah. And pathways thinking. Mm-hmm. But essentially it's, it's goal directed thinking, willpower, and way power. So lemme explain them and then I think you'll know what it means.

DANIEL: You need all three to have hope. So the first thing is you need a goal. Okay. You need goal directed thinking. Essentially, no one gets to the top of Mount Kilimanjaro. Accidentally and says, how do I get here? People who set goals, who have a vision for where they're heading are much more likely to, to get there.

DANIEL: And so what Schneider discovered is to have hope, you need to actually have a vision for a better future. Okay?

So

DANIEL: if you don't have an imagination of what the future might be, and if that imagination [00:16:00] isn't more positive and hopeful than what you have now, well then it's hard to actually have the feeling and the psychological experience of hope,

MATT: an end state.

MATT: Or a goal, a destination that is gonna be, again, positive I better than your current state.

DANIEL: Absolutely. The, the opposite is, I suppose, you know, apathy or just continuing the same old thing. Yeah. And hope by its very nature needs something beyond where you're at now. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. But. It's not enough to have a goal and it's not enough to have goal oriented thinking.

DANIEL: You need two other parts to actually experience hope. So the first one is willpower or what Schneider called agency thinking. And essentially this is, you know, pretty easy to understand. This is grit, tenacity, determination the internal motivational drive to actually do something. To head towards Mount Kilimanjaro.

DANIEL: You know, you can have a goal and think about it and imagine it, but if you've got no grit and no internal drive we might say conscientiousness. That's a dirty word. A variety. That's a dirty word. In the top five. In the big five only [00:17:00] because I think, what are you in the conscientiousness? Like, I think it's like

MATT: bottom 3% or something like that.

DANIEL: So if you're not conscientious, little bit I've done with my life without it. If you're not conscientious, if you don't have a sense of wanting to do something towards your goals, well then you won't get there. You'll just. Feel, lack of hope. Um, so now we're going back to the Batman analogy. I think Alfred says to Bruce, Wayne, why do we fall down so we can learn to pick ourselves up again?

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. So if it was good enough for Batman, it's probably good enough for us. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. He was pretty conscientious. He was pretty conscientious. But even Batman wouldn't have been able to achieve his goals without one other thing, which is what we call way power. Mm-hmm. Or what Schneider called Pathways thinking.

DANIEL: And that's. The magic formula we're gonna talk about. Okay. And so way power is actually fairly easy to describe it. It's the ability to try multiple options or different paths to achieve the same goal. We call it way power because it's about finding a different way you might have motivation. Mm-hmm. But if you get a kite stuck in a tree and you throw a shoe at it [00:18:00] mm-hmm.

DANIEL: And then you throw another shoe at it, and then you throw a cat at it, and then you throw a ladder at it, and then you throw a a whale at it. You, you are using motivation. Yeah. But it's probably time to stop and think, do I need a different strategy?

MATT: Yeah, that's good. Like it probably takes a fair bit of discipline and grit to throw a whale, for example.

MATT: Well, that's true. It's like unless you're a Batman. Yeah, yeah. So you could be trying super, super, super hard again, like, and really giving it everything, but at the same time it's

DANIEL: futile. I mean it's, it sounds simple, but you know, if you hit a problem in life, we, most of us. Do something similar to what we've always done.

DANIEL: And so what Schneider found is that there are particular personality types and you can learn way power. This is the encouraging thing. There are, but there are particular personality types where you try something, you hit a, you hit a roadblock. You don't just give up and you don't try harder. You say, what are three other options?

DANIEL: And then you try one of those options and that doesn't work.

Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: And so you. Look for a few other options, and you try something else. If [00:19:00] you continue to try different strategies, eventually something works and you navigate your way around the barriers and issues and challenges that you are facing, and you move towards your goal.

DANIEL: And so if you, and then you experience hope because you can see that you are actually ma making tangible, meaningful progress forward. Yeah. Towards the thing that you truly desire rather than, oh my gosh, I'm here again. I've tried hard and nothing works out for me.

MATT: So Schneider is like, he's not saying, so, he's not saying like way power slash pathways thinking he's enough.

MATT: He's saying you need that. Coupled with again, like that kind of intrinsic motivation and drive and discipline, all that kind of good stuff, as well as having like a will identified goal. Absolutely. Okay. So all three are critical. Yeah. All three are critical. Yeah. Now the

DANIEL: reason I think way power is so helpful mm-hmm.

DANIEL: Is because I don't think many people know that that bit. Is important and they, and that's the bit you can really leverage, I think. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: Because hard to motivate yourself. In fact, sometimes you motivate yourself by actually [00:20:00] taking action. There's plenty of research in that, and you can definitely learn skills to learn pathways thinking.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. Look, the last bit of research I find interesting is people who are high in way power, according to Schneider. They get better grades. They do better. Well, like they, they do better in university than people who have high intelligence. Oh, it's interesting. People who are high in pathways thinking and way power, they manage to overcome pain and negative situations more positively than others.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. They seem to have high interper, better interpersonal relationships. Okay. They make more money. They're better at elite sports. Like it really is an amazing skill to be able to constantly look for different options and try new things. But at the end of the day, if you don't remember anything else, as I said, if at first you don't succeed, try different strategy.

DANIEL: So for the rest of the podcast, we wanna talk about how can you actually learn the skills of pathways thinking, find a new way. Actually get unstuck if you've been trying one or two things [00:21:00] again and again, and it's time to try a completely different approach to solve your problem.

DANIEL: All right. So Matt, look, this is a bit of an experiment, but we talked about the idea of, let's take one of our challenges you know, one of the areas where we feel somewhat stuck in a domain and, you know, go through the the Hope theory framework and then we might unroll the theory. Retrospectively. Does that sound okay?

DANIEL: So we'll see if this works, but um, just maybe talk about, again, briefly how you feel stuck.

MATT: Yeah, so I feel stuck going back to our five capitals. I'm stuck in the, um, the physical capital, which is both health as well as time. And for me it's. Like we talked about before time. So, um, I feel like I have, um, and my bent now for years has been to overcommit time-wise.

MATT: Um, so I'm in this really blessed situation where I've got loads of [00:22:00] opportunities, great things being presented to me, um, both in terms of, you know, activities, hobbies, pursuits hanging out with people. It's almost all good stuff, right? Um, but this is in amongst me working a job, being pretty busy there.

MATT: Being a father, being a husband, all that kind of stuff. So, um, coupled with the fact that I'm innately like a people pleaser, I think. So that's one of my many issues is, um, I find it hard to say no to people. I like, people, like people are fun, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so. Where I find myself is that I end up overcommitting, um, to people and causes.

MATT: And then when it comes to actual execution, being able to follow through with my commitments, they, they almost end up being lame in the sense that, 'cause I'm spread so relatively thin that I don't really give any cause. Um, and I don't give some of my relationships actually like what they're, yeah. So I end up like disappointing people myself.

MATT: Yeah. And you

DANIEL: double book and you can't turn up to things and things like that.

MATT: That's right. Yeah. I mean, like on the upside I think it adds to my Lou so. You know, if you're not there. Yeah. Yeah. If you're not there, half the time people [00:23:00] go, man, this would've been so much better if Matt was there. He come next time.

MATT: I know, I

DANIEL: hear him on the podcast, but I've never seen him Person. Yeah. Never. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. I've never seen

MATT: Batman and

DANIEL: Matt

MATT: Bain

DANIEL: in

MATT: the same room.

DANIEL: I mean, yeah. I mean, so Matt, one of the things you've mentioned, and you've also talked about, you know, off, off air mm-hmm. Is that like, in some ways it's a simple solution.

DANIEL: You, you need to be better at doing less filling calendar up less and saying, and essentially being. Okay with saying no more regularly. Yeah. Is that fair to say?

MATT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think maybe two episodes ago, um, I kind of tried to present it in terms of external and internal factors. So the internal factors are just like getting more comfortable with saying no.

MATT: You know, and poss possibly like letting people down or disappointing people at the front end, but at least like doing it in an honorable way as opposed to like, kind of like a slow bleed of not so honorable disappointment. Okay. Yeah. So there's that. And then the external stuff is just, um, as we just talked about, I'm not that conscientious by nature or by temperament.

MATT: So I could do [00:24:00] with more self-discipline, better systems. You know, better adherence to tools and that kind of stuff. Yeah. Because you

DANIEL: need them, because you're not naturally as motivated as other people to, to, to do stuff for yourself.

MATT: Well, yeah. So, yeah, so I guess the thing is I'm pretty motivated to do the things that I want to do in the moment.

MATT: It's like actually putting together a plan and sticking to, which I find just. By nature, restrictive and often boring and predictable.

DANIEL: Alright, I mean, I can hear a few things here. 'cause one, if you go to the bright spots, the strengths based stuff, um, why don't we start there? Is there a, is there a bright spot where you've actually said no in advance in an appropriate way to a, an, you know, something you would've liked to have done that then gave you the space to be less overcommitted?

DANIEL: Can you think of an example?

MATT: Yeah, I can, I can. Um, not so much in recent history, but in 2024 I did.

DANIEL: Yeah, I can think of an example. 'cause I asked you to do some more work for me. Yeah, that's true. And you said yes, but not until May. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. That was a no essentially. [00:25:00] But not a full No, because it was a no, but yeah.

DANIEL: And did that give you a little bit more space because of that? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a bright spot. I mean, that's one thing. It, it wasn't a full on, no. Mm-hmm. But it was like a, well, no, but I can't until this date, because that's my commitment. Mm-hmm. If I do, I'm overstretched.

MATT: Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah.

DANIEL: Yeah.

MATT: Yeah. That, that's a, that's a really good

DANIEL: example. Yeah. But it, but that wasn't easy.

MATT: Yeah.

DANIEL: Okay. Interesting. So, I mean, the thing about way power, right? The first thing I would often do is, you know, firstly think about things that have worked in the past. Mm-hmm. Because you wanna start with your bright spots, but then come up with a whole lot of different ideas about how you, let's say, could say no or not yet.

DANIEL: To different situations in a more creative or consistent way. So how have you tried to say no in the past?

MATT: Well, there was a time I tried faking my own death, but that didn't work out so well.

DANIEL: I know people, so, so through that people kept hearing it on the podcast

MATT: and thought, hang on. He said he was dead.

MATT: That sounds way too self important. Yeah. So I've tried to go about it by, um, by begin by, by becoming [00:26:00] hyper organized. Right. So, so one

DANIEL: strategy, like is Yeah. One strategy. Okay. I get, I, I get really organized Yeah. And pushed hard Yeah. To, to do the opposite of my low conscientiousness.

MATT: Yeah, that's right.

MATT: That's right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So again, like use, lean on some of my, so bend some of my strengths, you know, towards, um, you know, about gathering information and researching. So like doing that to come up with good systems and da da finding good, good people in my life, such as yourself who can compliment me and, okay.

MATT: So partnering. Yeah. Yeah. Partnering. Yep. Yep. Um, so that's been, that's been useful. Um, another way that I've started thinking about it and I've tried to implement, but even this is hard, is um, 'cause it just sounds so precious as in, so self important is like just kind of putting a cap on my commitment. So if I, so what I should do, like going forward, what I'm trying to do is if I commit for something, it's like, it's, it's time bound.

MATT: So yeah. I can do this for the next 12 months. Okay. At the end of 12 months, I'm gonna have to reassess. Yeah.

DANIEL: Okay. So make sure that whatever you do commit to it has a Yeah. Finite. Beginning and end. Yes. So that at least there's an out clause if you need it. [00:27:00] Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a strategy, right?

DANIEL: Yeah. That's, so that's why we're trying, we're looking for strategies that you can identify and then reproduce over time. Yeah.

MATT: Um, and then another one, which has come up in the podcast last season, which is really useful in this context is, um, you know, a greater Yes. In order to be able to sustain a smaller known, you know, so I think that's partly saying, well, like in terms of the stuff.

MATT: That I say yes to, um, and the stuff that I should say no to, like there is some kind of end or goal, you know, going back to the way power through behind each of those paths. And I should be clear on where those paths, like what are they actually pursuing?

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. So look, I suppose with way power, what we would do is we'd try to brainstorm as many other ideas as possible.

DANIEL: So they're the ones that you can identify that you've done already, but you would think, okay, you know, maybe get a piece of paper even. And you say, what are 20? Different ways I could say no to consider, to help me essentially reduce over commitment. So yeah, faking your own death, that's a great strategy.

DANIEL: There's one. All right, we've got something off. You know what's something [00:28:00] ridiculous? It's something crazy and absurd that you could do that you're not gonna do, but hey, it's worth putting on the list. You mean in addition to faking my own? Yeah. Something. Kel. Come on. So Kel, okay, so there's a strategy and the aim is to go ridiculous because I want to get things going.

DANIEL: Okay. Yeah. So

MATT: look, you could go like Thurman Nuclear, which would be No, no, you could. So, so here's the button. Okay. So this is it. I'm sorry, but I'm tapping out. So from this day on. Everything that I've committed to, apart from like being a father and a husband and maybe worker, but everything else is off the table now.

MATT: Okay, so you

DANIEL: put

MATT: a

DANIEL: cap on it. Hard reset. Yeah. Well, that's exactly what I do with business when I'm truly full. Really? Do you I actually say I cannot take any new client until June. Okay. It's not quite thermonuclear. Yeah, because I'm saying. I'm saying, I say my books are closed, right? Yeah.

MATT: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

MATT: Where whereas I, I'll be saying, I'm resetting. So the stuff that I've said yes

DANIEL: to. Oh, you clo? Oh yeah. You say no to everyone. Okay. Yeah. So you do a blanket email and say, hi everyone. I'm over committed. Yeah. Um, I've realized that for various reasons, I have to massively strip back my life. And you are all now.

DANIEL: Blown up. Yeah. But that's [00:29:00] one strategy. Mm-hmm. Let's keep throwing up these 'cause we're not committing to these. We are brainstorming in different ways. Okay. Yeah. Good, good. So gimme, let's get some other ideas.

MATT: Yeah. So, and another idea is, um, taking the stuff that I definitely want to commit to. So the things I've identified that I wanna say yes to, and actually like, program them in hard and fast.

MATT: So, um. Like, I'm just thinking like the, the real life example was we talked about like a, I think last, last season, um, me really identifying that I wanted to spend a lot more regular time with particularly old friends. Um, and so like putting together something in our collective diary, so like once a month we have dinner together and that's like, and that's kicked on and it's been great.

MATT: So now it's just part of my, I guess like. My kind of like times escapee.

Mm-hmm.

MATT: But it wouldn't, I don't think it would happen if I hadn't said, okay, it's gonna be at this time, every single blah, blah, blah. So, so, so you, you fill up the spaces that matter most. So you

DANIEL: prioritize what truly matters. Yeah.

DANIEL: Yeah. And then, you know, you, you then mm-hmm. Clearly don't have the space for other things. Yeah. Now look, if you and I were doing a. You know, a full coaching session, we would spend the hour and you [00:30:00] would end up writing down 30 different options for how you might say no. Okay. Yeah. But this is the beginning of way power.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. You know, where you actually think about what you've done, where you're heading. Mm-hmm. What different options are some crazy options, some different options. You might outsource your nose and get someone else to say them. You, you might, you know, I dunno, create a funny meme with you in AI that says, I won't be friends with you anymore.

DANIEL: I dunno. You, you just come up with lots of different options. Yeah. And so you go wided, and then what we do is we eliminate, okay, maybe we won't do this with you now because of the nature of, you know, relationships. But I would say, Hey, I also

MATT: like hobbies and stuff as well though. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I imagine like for example, you could say, okay, well, you know, someone may exercise like, say like 90 minutes a day.

MATT: Do I really need to exercise 90 minutes a day or could I like cut that back to, you know, 60 for example? Exactly.

DANIEL: Yeah. Or I would say, are there other forms of exercise you would enjoy as much? Yeah. That don't take 90 minutes a day. Yeah. Yeah. And get you the same outcome. Yeah. Or I could bundle. Yeah. So that's exactly right.

DANIEL: Yeah. So the point is you wanna brainstorm as many options as possible. Mm-hmm. [00:31:00] Because otherwise you just see one option, I'm gonna throw the shoe at the tree. Mm-hmm. And. It's not working. Yeah. Right. And then once you've got it all out, laid in front of your ridiculous options, great options, there are two ways you can then take that information.

DANIEL: One is to either combine or eliminate. So combination is okay. Are there any options here that are great, but if I combine them, they'd be even better. Okay. Because often we throw up ideas, but when you think about them in combination, you come up with kind of a third. Synergy and that increases the pool of options.

DANIEL: So that's the combining technique. And the other technique is the elimination question. So if you had to remove the thing that you always do, like your number one go-to, and it, you couldn't do that anymore, well then what would you have to do now maybe in your situation it's not. The best question, but in a situation where someone is stuck with a career, and the question could be, well, if the, if you just lost your job and could never work in that industry again, what would you do?

DANIEL: You know? Oh, I see. Yeah. And tell us about eliminating your current schema. Yeah. [00:32:00] In, in the terms of Floyd, it's, Hey Floyd, if you could never throw anything in the tree again Mm, what other options would you have?

MATT: I like that.

DANIEL: Okay. Yeah. So the key is still trying to widen the net. Move the spotlight around to get lots of different options.

MATT: Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: The final step is choose one and do it.

MATT: Okay. Okay. So I wonder when it comes to that idea of elimination, whether a good equivalent, um, scenario or hypothetical for me would be, I wonder what would happen if I just lost a day a week. I approach it that way. Yes.

DANIEL: That's a great, that's a great example.

DANIEL: Okay. Or even more, I'd go more radical, I'd say. Okay. From now on. My five day work week, let's say, is now a three day work week, and like either the universe changed or you know, I'm caring for a six child two days a week or something that, you know, truly takes you out of the picture. Mm-hmm. What would you do?

DANIEL: That would be a great thing to brainstorm because it'll force you to prioritize what truly matters and start to help you work out what's on the cutting floor. In [00:33:00] that situation. And then often what happens is you'll think, well, why isn't that on the coming for now? Yeah, yeah. And then how can I use these brainstormed options to actually make progress?

DANIEL: Mm-hmm.

MATT: So, um, look, thanks for that. Really. I appreciate it. And that, um, I know it sounds trite 'cause we're being recorded and this is a podcast, but that really was helpful. So thank you. Um, this is obviously, as in this theory is pretty new to me, so I think I caught. The three steps of that. So, um, number one being about, you know, brainstorming new options that made sense to me.

MATT: Eliminate and combine current options also, like really useful. And then number three, like do something new, but just particularly to make sure that it's s sinking in both myself and our listeners and viewers. It'd be great to hear you unpack those three steps. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So

DANIEL: if I, if, if you can see the benefit of way power, of trying new strategies and doing new things to get out of old problems, this is the process I'd probably recommend. So the first one is to start by brainstorming options. And by brainstorming options, I want you to try as many as possible. So we are going [00:34:00] for one tot quantity, not quality. Okay, cool. Yeah, because that's the point, um, when we're definitely not committing to these.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. So what I would normally suggest is I want you to have at least 20 options. Sometimes I'd say 50 options. The point is to have a ridiculous number of options, so clearly you have to think outside of your schema.

MATT: Well, so I like sit down literally for like one kind of session and I'm just hammering out.

MATT: Brainstorming. Absolutely.

DANIEL: I'm thinking of a particular client from last week, and I, we talked about a problem and I said, okay, we are gonna brainstorm 30 options. And the first thing they said is, that's a lot. I'm like, that's exactly the point, because you can't get too precious about it, you know? Okay.

DANIEL: Yeah. So let's, let's give an example. So, I mean, you can do this with anything, you know, health, finances, whatever, but, um, I've put a YouTube video out recently on what I call, you know. Tongue in cheek romantic productivity. So using way power to help find a date. That great sweater. Great sweater. So let's say, let's say you want a date, and rather than just hoping that Mr.

DANIEL: Wright or Mrs. Wright comes along or maybe without just using [00:35:00] a dating app, you actually want to see if you can find strategies. To get there. Okay. So, you know, what a, let's say 20 ideas that you could do. So you start with ridiculous stuff. Okay. I could find someone cute in the street and go up and say, Hey, can I get your phone number?

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. It might work. Hmm. But you know, it's ballsy, right? Mm-hmm. Maybe you could, I dunno, get a pay for a signwriter. To kind of, I don't know, write your phone number and say, need a date in the Skype. I mean, that's ridiculous. But again, I want you to write stuff down, put posters everywhere and say, Hey, I'm single.

DANIEL: I'm looking for Mrs. Wright. Okay. But, um, once you get a few ideas off the, you know, on, on paper, you're off and running. Yeah. But seriously, what are some strategies to meet people or to get out and to do something new? You could join a silent disco. I mean, gimme some ideas, Matt,

MATT: come on. Yeah. So like, like we're hypothetical obviously.

MATT: Yeah. So, like you, like you you could like join a sporting club. You

DANIEL: join us. Boarding club, you

MATT: can take something that you're really interested and passionate about. You'll find some kind of like group for that, where you find like-minded people Exactly. Jump into that. You could, um, you know, you may have like friends of friends, so

DANIEL: like Yeah.

DANIEL: Tell friends that you're looking for someone. You could start a [00:36:00] blog about singles. You could start like a singles. I don't know, quiz night. You know, the point is like if you write enough stuff down, you'll often think, oh yeah, there is stuff I could start to do. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the point is to get heaps out there and then look at it's the first step.

DANIEL: And again, and I haven't committed to any of these yet. I'm committed to any, of course, you're not probably gonna go up to random strangers and say, can I have your number? Mm-hmm. But actually you might realize. That's a really good strategy. If I did that 20 times, I might get a yes. Yeah. And then I get a date, you know, who knows.

DANIEL: Um, so the second step is to eliminate or combine options. And this is really about still brainstorming, but trying to just shift the way in which you brainstorm to get, I. Broader options. So one is to combine. So what ideas could you combine in order to make this work? Yes, I could go to a silent disco and then find someone and talk to them, I don't know, you know, et cetera, or, or I could, I could join a sporting club, but also serve and in the process, yeah, be the top person.

DANIEL: Yeah. I'm

MATT: not sure we talk to people at assigned disco, so I think [00:37:00] I like it. Second one, it's good.

DANIEL: I'm shooting off the cuff. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But does that makes sense? Yeah. But combining and come up with extra options. Yeah. And the other one is. The elimination options. So imagine that your current strategy is no longer on the table.

DANIEL: A classic would be, you know, I've been using dating apps for years, or Tinder. It's not working for, for the type of relationships I'm trying to connect with. It's now off the table. Okay. You're no longer allowed to use dating apps. Yeah. Yeah. So what options are available to you? Cool.

MATT: Okay. And so maybe like going back to my initial list of 30.

DANIEL: Yeah.

MATT: Once I make that call about elimination, that might actually, or like just automatically discard. You might a bunch of those 30. Exactly. Yeah. Just like, okay. It's good. It's good. But particularly

DANIEL: eliminate in your mind Yeah. The things that you currently do. Okay. So you, you go to, which forces you to, to, to try new things.

DANIEL: Gotcha. You So no more throwing, yeah, no more throwing stuff in the tree. No more throwing stuff in the tree. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's good. But with all that in mind, now you have a bunch of options. You have pathways to consider. Mm-hmm. The third step, the final step is choose one. This is where you commit.

MATT: Yeah.

DANIEL: And actually do something new. It doesn't have to be the biggest step. It could be one [00:38:00] first step towards something. Let's say silent disco option. Okay? I'm going to research silent discos and put one in my calendar. Now, you might go there, hate silent discos, not meet anyone, but you've tried something, right?

DANIEL: You'll learn something from that experience. Reflect on what you learned, and then say, well, that didn't work. But what I did enjoy is going out on a Friday night, and I enjoyed the fact that I had dinner before I went out. So how about I go to dinner with a friend? But unless you try something, you won't get the information you need to try another path to try another path.

DANIEL: And eventually you're likely to experience the goal that you're seeking for, or you might in the process realize, actually, I don't really need a date. I actually just need to go to Tuscany and start enjoying life and not waiting for Mr. Wright because life is here to live. And I've now built the habits of actually doing stuff.

DANIEL: And that's what I really, really wanted in the first place. Cool. So, but that, that leads that Exactly. Pay love at leads to hope. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. At least the hope, at least to progress, at least to a sense of movement.

MATT: Okay, cool. So, [00:39:00] so going back to just like do something so that, um, so that something could be something from my original list of 30, or it could also be like one of those.

MATT: Combinations, like a synthesis that you talked about as well. And if it doesn't work out if I've heard you right, it's not, it's not just a matter of saying, well, it didn't work out, so literally like draw a line through it, it's okay, it didn't work out. But again, almost I'm looking for the bright spots.

MATT: Was there anything that I enjoyed about that process, even though overall it didn't work out? Is this something that I can kind of take and then that's gonna modify perhaps my original list of 30 and the next option that I, and

DANIEL: then you brainstorm more options. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And you rinse and repeat.

DANIEL: It's not a once off gig. Right? Good. Yeah. Okay. Um, and we are gonna talk about, imagine from, imagine your paths mm-hmm. With with way power. Mm-hmm. To forge new action. Yes. The next episode will be, okay, let's focus on the doing bit. Yep. Because, you know, you have to do something new in order to get the change.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But all up, hopefully it doesn't feel too complicated. Essentially, it's sit down, brainstorm as many options to solve your problem as you can. If you need to combine or eliminate to get better options, do that. Pick one and do at [00:40:00] least one thing differently. Yeah. And then rinse and repeat.

DANIEL: Yeah. And if you do that regularly, you will develop

MATT: mm-hmm.

DANIEL: Way power.

MATT: Yeah. But I'm not sure about you, but I imagine I'm not alone in thinking that sometimes when I commit to an action, it can feel like this is gonna be like a lifelong, like, you know, you know, for better or for worse commitment. And that's, and that can be like, you just bring a whole lot of pressure to the table, but.

MATT: It sounds like way, power is almost more of a just create this as an experiment, you know? So that just lowers the stakes

DANIEL: a little

MATT: bit, which I think is really

DANIEL: healthy. Yeah. And look, there are personality types, let's say in the Clifton strengths like activator, where people do, and then they learn. Yeah.

DANIEL: And they do and they learn and they actually innately. Pilot and experiment with actions, which I think is the, the secret to way power. There are others who really like to sit back and think deeply and read and talk and reflect before they do anything. Mm-hmm. So, so, you know, this does lean into a particular personality type.

DANIEL: Sure. But at some point everyone has to act. Yeah. And and as you do, you'll discover a new [00:41:00] way.

MATT: Thanks again, Dan. There's a lot there to reflect on. I think now would be a great time just to take, you know, pause for a bit and reflect on both, like the theory, you know, just like try to get it all settled in my head and maybe start to ponder about how you could take away power and apply it to the area where you feel stuck.

MATT: So let's just take a moment, huh?[00:42:00] 

DANIEL: All right, so hopefully that was useful. Let's get to the last bit, which is super important and this is where you do the activity because it's great theory, but unless you do it, you won't get the benefit and hope. A sense of movement and progress comes from widening your your net. And then doing something about it.

DANIEL: So Matt, do you wanna explain our pretty simple but important activity?

Yeah.

DANIEL: For I and the shift framework. Imagine new paths. Yeah.

MATT: That's great. So here's what we'd like you to do. Book a time in [00:43:00] your calendar this week, a 20 minute slot. And book it in a nice space, like a context that you are gonna feel like that you just enjoy, you're gonna feel pretty relaxed at, and we'd like you to take that 20 minutes and generate 20 options, 20 potential paths that are directly related to that area slash domain that you feel stuck in and like down was explaining.

MATT: What's critical here is. You aren't committing to any of these, okay? So don't put too much pressure on yourself. Expect that there's gonna be some really left field, completely improbable, even crazy ideas that come out. But again, we're focused on quantity over quality. So that's it. 20 minutes for 20 ideas slash pass in a really nice environment that's gonna be conducive to that this week.

MATT: Look, that

DANIEL: sounds great, Matt. Yeah. And hey if, if our listeners are. You know, come up with some crazy interesting options. You know, shoot, shoot them to us, email us. We're always keen to hear where people are at. That's right. If

MATT: anyone out there actually knows how to fake your own death. Just saying, asking him for a friend.

DANIEL: I know it may not be the [00:44:00] strategy worked, it was in the execution, but, um, look, if anyone's interested in knowing more about way power mm-hmm. In different contexts, there's a bunch of videos on my YouTube channel. I think that they're in a playlist. Cold way, parallel pathways thinking. There's videos about how to find a better career, how to find a date, how to understand the theory and details.

DANIEL: So feel free to have a look at that if you wanna dive into this deeper. Nice. Um, my channel is at Daniel s ih, if you haven't looked at it yet. Um. But next week we are gonna talk about the f, the big F in the shift framework, which as you mentioned in episode one, the F is important. Otherwise the framework changes dramatically.

DANIEL: Yeah. It all goes to something else. Yeah, but I mean, seriously that's probably true because you can, you can pick a domain, you can focus on your strengths you can come up with all these great ideas for how you can change your life unless you do something about it, unless you forge into action. Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: It's actually a bit meaningless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you talk about [00:45:00] strategies to actually get going again, if you feel stuck.

MATT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to this one, but at the same time I'm also kind of like, um, feeling like a little bit trepidatious. 'cause I think this is gonna be the hardest step for a lot of people, myself included.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. But also the funnest. Because once you start doing something, that's how you make space.

MATT: Um, just like, again, to make sure it's really sunk in. I love that line, that quotable moment that you came up with before. Do you wanna hit us with that again?

DANIEL: Yeah, sure. So if you, you remember nothing else, remember this.

DANIEL: If at first you don't succeed, don't just try, try again. But try a different strategy. But until next time, make space. See ya.

VOICEOVER: The space makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL: Big thanks to our sponsor. Bulk Nutrients. Enjoy a 5% discount on protein powders and health supplements for orders over 45 [email protected] au.

DANIEL: Just enter the code space makers.

VOICEOVER: If you feel busy, overloaded and struggling to keep up, the Spacemaker Dojo is here To help. This online community [00:46:00] is for busy professionals like you dedicated to making space together. For less than $75 a month, you can access our best. Selling courses like Email Ninja and Priority Samurai.

VOICEOVER: Join Live Zoom training sessions and share your learning with others. Dive into the Dojo to regain control of your time and make space in a supportive accountable community. Visit space makers au slash dojo to find out more. Until next time, make space.