DANIEL: [00:00:00] Hey there, space makers. I'm Daniel Sih, joined by my good friend and co-host Matt Bain. This is the third season of The Space Makers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life more than a podcast. This podcast will help you get unstuck in one area of life. One step at a time by helping you shift the way you live and work big thanks to our sponsor.

DANIEL: Bulk Nutrients. Enjoy a 5% discount on protein powders and health supplements for orders over $45. At bulk nutrients.com au just enter the code space makers,

NARRATOR: the space makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Spacemaker Podcast season three, where we are exploring how to get unstuck.

DANIEL: If you feel stuck in an era of your life and you want to make change when change is hard, uh, I'm here with my co-host, the one and only Matt Bain, the Yoda of the Podcasting World. Welcome. [00:01:00] Thanks. Thanks, chewy.

MATT: That's great.

MATT: You got the height, to be fair. Yeah. Thanks. Not quite the hair, but the height. Yeah. I, I'm aiming for the hair. Yeah. We are talking about strengths. Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: It's very hard to recover from that. Isn't that?

MATT: Now I'm wishing I'm gone with Jja,

DANIEL: we are talking about the science. Of strengths today, strength, and, uh, we're exploring what it looks like to focus on what works rather than what doesn't and how that can help you get unstuck for a better second act.

DANIEL: And look, we're inspired by Don Clifton, who did a whole lot of work with the Gallup Institute, and he ended up doing a heap of research based on this one question. And the question was, what would happen if we began by focusing on what is right with people rather than what is wrong? And we're gonna talk about some of that research that led to the psychology of strengths that led to the positive psychology movement.

DANIEL: Uh, but essentially it's a good question for individuals to ask, you know, what might happen if you focused on what is working in your life? I. [00:02:00] Rather than what's not working, uh, what might happen if you amplify the things that you've done, even if they're irregular and multiply them rather than kind of try to fix the things that are constantly wrong.

DANIEL: And it's just a really nice thing to look at what works rather than what doesn't.

MATT: And Dan, I believe at the end of the podcast, we're gonna offer people some ways that they can actually identify some of their specific strengths and explore them themselves. Yeah. Perfect. Sounds good. Stan, right now, I'd love you to gimme the shifts, the shift framework.

DANIEL: You give me the shifts as well. Matt. We are working through a framework called Shift, which is to help you change things when things are tough and you feel stuck. Uh, it's an acrostic. So S stands for select a domain, which we've been talking about, to pick an area that you wanna change. Yeah. H is harness your strengths, which we're gonna talk about today.

DANIEL: That's right, yeah. I as imagine multiple paths F is forge ahead with action and t to travel alongside others. We are gonna get there as we progress through this 10 episode season, but before we do. Let's talk about [00:03:00] why bad is stronger than good, and why we find it so hard as humans to actually focus on our strengths.

MATT: Yeah. This is a really, really fascinating topic. So we're gonna be drawing largely on the work of a, um, an article that was published all the way back in 2001, I believe. It's since been verified like a couple of times. Mm. That was first published, I believe, in the review of general psychology. And it was basically like a, I think like a meta study so it wasn't just one study.

MATT: Instead like looked at the results of multiple studies that had been kind of undertaken across the same field. And that same field, like the big idea that they were looking at is that if you interpret something psychologically, so if the impression that it makes is bad or negative, then pound for pound, it's gonna outweigh anything that you interpret as being.

MATT: Positive. Okay. Or good. Yeah. So again, pound for pound. If you view it, if your impression is this was a negative or bad event, it's gonna have, it's gonna make a lot more of a [00:04:00] solid impression. It's gonna be more felt by you. You are gonna spend more time like processing the event. So you are gonna be a lot more naturally receptive to, again, things that you, things that you interpret as having consequences that are negative or bad compared to the good and the really kind of, I think, startling thing about.

MATT: And sobering thing about this study is that it said a, this is a lot broader than you think. So it's all the way from interpersonal reactions to, um, parental influences, to feedback to the loss of something. Say for example, if you lose 50 bucks, then that's gonna make a much more of an impression than if you suddenly gained 50 bucks outta nowhere.

MATT: Yeah.

DANIEL: And that's now called loss aversion, I think. Yeah.

MATT: So the breadth of this across all of life is really, really profound. It's just about everywhere. And secondly, um. The other sobering component about it is that there seems to be virtually no exceptions to this.

DANIEL: So I did read the article a while ago.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. Uh, and it's called Bad is Stronger Than Good, right? Yeah. So, um, actually, who was it from? Well,

MATT: Boer and Co. Yeah, we'll leave a

DANIEL: link in the notes because it's worth the read, but, um, [00:05:00] bad is stronger than good. And essentially, like you said, that in, in the human psyche, I think that bad events, bad situations, bad parenting.

DANIEL: Yeah. Leaves a stronger impression on, on us than positive.

MATT: Yeah. Yeah. Again, anything that you deem as having bad consequences?

DANIEL: Anything we deem? Yeah, I mean, I, I read it a while ago. The, the, the impression that I walked away with is, well, there was one particular example that they gave, 'cause I just gave example after example from all these different studies about how humans.

DANIEL: See bad as more strong than good or stronger than good. Mm-hmm. Um, and the one example that I remember was that there's no, there's no equivalent example of a a negative event. A traumatic event, traumatic, that say something that happens like, I dunno, sexual trauma in childhood, something terrible that happens mm-hmm.

DANIEL: That can have kind of negative Yeah. Flashbacks and flow on effects all your life. Mm-hmm. There's no such positive effect. You, you can't. You can't go to Disneyland and then have flashbacks that just make you feel incredibly happy for the next 40 years. You can't win the lottery and for that

MATT: to occur, well, that was like the crazy one, right?

MATT: So at [00:06:00] the lottery, they found people's baselines happiness on average returned back to average or back to baseline 12 months later, right? Yeah. So if I win the lottery, I'm gonna feel elated and stoked and so fantastic. Now, in 12 months time, I'll be back to pre win. Levels of mad happiness.

DANIEL: Yeah. And what's interesting is your happiness levels, if you are depressed to start with Yeah.

DANIEL: Well then you are one year later you'll likely be just as depressed if you are, you know, be more of a chappy type. That's right. Yeah. Uh, you're still gonna return to that baseline, but, but the positive event doesn't have a long term significant flow. Whereas

MATT: in, if I got paralyzed, like say from the waist down.

MATT: Then the consequences of that as in like, uh, the impression that that made and what it is in my baseline level of happiness. There's a good chance that would also return to pre paralyzed levels, but it'll take much, much, much longer than a year. Ah,

DANIEL: that's interesting. 'cause I had heard the, the former part.

DANIEL: Okay, so again, it's another example that bad events, bad parenting, bad situations, or interpreted by events that we interpret as having bad consequences have a stronger impact on us. And I think this is [00:07:00] incredibly, incredibly important to recognize and grasp, particularly when it comes to how we feel, when we feel stuck, and what it might look like to move forward individually and collectively.

DANIEL: So how does this research. Speak into that space of what we need to focus on and how to get unstuck.

MATT: Yeah. Well, like, I mean, one, um, like hopefully this is, this is like kind of useful, but um, 'cause I know this sounds like pretty grim news thus far. Uh, but the authors point out that, um, that one way to kind of combat this for want of a better term is just by sheer volume.

MATT: So they say like that, um, you know, for example, the, and I'm sure like a heap of, heap of people have like heard this before, right? Say in the context of an interpersonal relationship in terms of like keeping things on the level. You wanna, you want at least like, um, five pieces if you like, of good positive feedback for everyone.

MATT: Negative, bad.

DANIEL: So soak your, soak your world in positive. Yeah, concentrate on the positives because you need to recognize that the negative bias is so strong. Yeah. That you'll [00:08:00] naturally feel that more.

MATT: You need the numbers. So that would be for parenting, that would be for the interpersonal management. It would be for

DANIEL: interpersonal relationships.

DANIEL: Yeah.

MATT: And can I just mention your hair looks great today.

DANIEL: Thanks Matt. And I love your blue eyes and your rugged look, but um, no, that's a good point. Yeah, that's a really good point. The other point I think is, you know, practices like thankfulness and gratitude. Mm-hmm. I think, well, at least for me, 'cause I'm a, I would say I'm naturally a half glass empty person by, I don't know, characteristics or, yeah.

DANIEL: By temperament. Temperament. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and so I, I've recognized that bad is stronger than good, and so I need to actively practice looking for what works. Mm-hmm. Practicing thankfulness, trying to actively speak. The things that are positive, not just end the day and say, Hey, this is, you know, what's been bad in my day.

DANIEL: But to actually try to find the opposite. Yes. You know, these are practices I've put in place partly from reading articles like this, recognizing, oh yeah. Mm-hmm. I don't wanna be. Ior, I wanna be negative all the time because there's consequences to that type of lifestyle. The ior, that's

MATT: an old example too.

MATT: No, it's good. No, no, no. Well done T [00:09:00] 

DANIEL: that's great. Um, so, um, I read this article years ago. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think it was given it to me by a mentor, actually. I dunno, maybe I was being overly negative. I don't dunno why you gave to me. But, uh, I was a physiotherapy manager at the time, and we had this incident reporting management system where every single time we had a complaint, which is really rare actually.

DANIEL: Yeah. We had like four or five complaints a year across, you know, the entire mm-hmm. Physio, health service in the community. But whenever I got a complaint from a client, I needed to. Log it onto the Eem system. I need to do a root, root cause analysis. I need to write a report, I need to talk about how we were gonna, you know, mitigate it, et cetera.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. So it's basically when a bad event happened, we took it really, really seriously. Yeah. But then I, I read this article and I'm like, this is funny because I, I know we get a lot of compliments as well. We don't do anything with them. And, uh, I, I spoke to the, you know, the head of the hospital and, and they said, oh, we do have.

DANIEL: A section of this Eem system where you can put a compliment in. I just, we don't really use it. Yeah. And, uh, so I'm like, well, let's use it then. And so I put out these [00:10:00] little colorful cards in every health center. They're just little colorful cards that said, tell us what you think. Mm. And we just encourage people to tell us what they thought.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. You know, it's just a tiny, you know. There was, there was space for like two or three lines. Yeah. And then we logged those results and, uh, so this is 2013, our team recorded 97 compliments in six months, which was 25% of the entire health system's compliment, which made us look good. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, but we would read them out.

DANIEL: Yeah. And what was fascinating is one staff member said to me, after a few months of reading out these positive compliments mm-hmm. As a group, they said, oh, well look, I kind of get the idea. You know, you feel warm and fuzzy, but what's the point? Yeah. All this. Nice feedback. Yeah. Yeah. And essentially what she was saying is, is there any value in focusing on what works?

DANIEL: Mm mm-hmm. Surely there's only value in focusing on what doesn't work in order to fix it. And what's fascinating since then, now that I'm a trained gallop. Organization coaching. In terms of Clifton strengths, I'm also kind of really into this. I, [00:11:00] I'm convinced of the value of strengths and creating a strength-based culture.

DANIEL: I would say the opposite is true, that actually the study of weakness and the study of strengths are not equal and opposite. We need to do risk management, we need to study and fix mistakes. Um, but as Marcus Buckingham says from the Gallup Institute, that fixing mistakes won't lead to excellence. The only way to lead to excellence is by.

DANIEL: Looking at what works and copying that, like copy success, amplify success. So if you fix mistakes, you'll stop problems happening, but you won't get excellence unless you focus on strengths. And so, yeah, I suppose the point is, what would it look like to collectively become more focused on what works and amplify it rather than always talk about what doesn't work?

DANIEL: And individually, what would it look like? To look at what is working even in a hard situation and amplify that rather than constantly say, this is broken, how do I fix it?

MATT: That's interesting. Um, because a point that comes up in the article, which really kind [00:12:00] of struck me as well, is that at least in the context of interpersonal, intimate relationships, it's actually, it's actually more powerful to avoid negative interactions than focus on.

MATT: Positive interactions. So that point would be, excellence is great, but in terms of what is gonna leave a more profound impression, it is gonna be making baseline mistakes, avoid baseline mistakes. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That, that's right. That's right. So it's

DANIEL: It's both though, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

DANIEL: You don't wanna do the dumb things. No. You know. No. You don't want to yell at your partner. No. Or just be a complete jerk. No, no, no. So that's the risk management part. Yeah. But you're not gonna have an amazing. Relationship, if that's all you do, you know, you, you're just gonna mitigate the worst of it.

DANIEL: Right. So if you wanna have an amazing relationship, you're gonna need to be Yeah, yeah. Sharing compliments, having fun together. Oh, yeah. You know, having Yeah. Beautiful dialogue. Like it's, it's the positive stuff that matters. Yeah.

MATT: Just like we are. Matt, I, look, I wonder when, when it comes to the [00:13:00] strengths, and again, uh, like you are the, uh, the coach.

MATT: So you have like more of a take on this than me, but I. Like, I wonder if part of this, 'cause so much of it comes down to, again, how events are interpreted. Hmm. So whether I take it at, whether the impression that's made is psychologically good slash positive versus, you know, um, negative and bad, right?

MATT: Mm-hmm. So I wonder if with strengths. If I chose to look at some of my weaknesses, if you like, not so much as weaknesses, but almost like necessary flip sides of my strengths, whether that would go a long way, whether if I view them through that lens, it wouldn't have the same psychological, it wouldn't leave the same psychological impression.

MATT: Does that make sense?

DANIEL: Absolutely. Well, and the language we use matters, it really matters. Mm-hmm. Like the, the stories we tell ourself really matters. Mm-hmm. So if I say to, you know, if I, if I say that something I struggle with, you know? Mm-hmm. Is a weakness. Mm. Well then you're gonna interpret that differently than saying actually, well, maybe it's a shadow side of my strengths or the, the language that, um, Gallup and Clifton strengths would use is [00:14:00] we need to turn up or turn down the volume of our strengths.

DANIEL: So there's an optimal level. Mm-hmm. But you can get into overdrive, which means you're overusing your strengths and that's leading to negative consequences. Yeah. Like I'm strategic, but if I'm too strategic Yeah. You know, that can lead to. Negative consequences in overdrive. Okay.

Yeah.

DANIEL: And you also have an under drive where actually I, I'm neglecting my strength and I could use that more to, to turn up the volume.

DANIEL: Yeah. And I quite like that language because it's more about saying, okay, well how do I calibrate my personality to get the best outcome rather than how do I fix what is inherently broken? Yeah. And that language, I think, can really shape culture individually and collectively, which is, is again, one of the benefits of a strength based culture.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. So finish this section. A summary. Bad is stronger than good. Why does that matter?

MATT: Bad is stronger than good. And that matters because unless we're aware of that and we're conscious of that, it's gonna be so easy for us to naturally kind of like default to focusing on the bad and negative impressions [00:15:00] that we come across.

MATT: Both if that's a, uh, critical self-evaluation, um, but also again, our just kind of being attuned to what we perceive as other people's negative evaluation of us as well. And again, perhaps. On a personal level, I think it's, it's, it's probably good to be aware of that because if I'm aware of it, I'm gonna be more conscious of perhaps being a bit more gentle.

MATT: I hate that word, a bit more hesitant or cautious about evaluating something as being negative. Mm-hmm. Or bad that that's right. I should slow myself down on that 'cause as soon as I label it, so it's gonna have a, now I know an outsize effect. No, that

DANIEL: makes sense. And probably the third thing I'd say, based on what you suggested is mm-hmm.

DANIEL: If you wanna be a more positive person and can see the value of projecting positivity into the world, which I think is a good thing. Yeah. Well then we need to actively surround ourselves. Mm-hmm. Or at least, uh, focus on Yeah. Positive experiences more so than negative because you need more positive.[00:16:00] 

DANIEL: Nudge points. Yeah. To get the same effect bias. Yeah. Yeah. As those negative ones.

MATT: I think also I, I'm just gonna try and I dunno how to go about this yet. It's gonna take some more, uh, reflection, but again, it really struck me that if I can manage to turn down unnecessary, like relatively, you know, like, um, irrelevant, small, negative slash bad events or my impressions of those, it's gonna have also a disproportionate effect on my day to day.

MATT: Yeah.

DANIEL: So Matt, we got carried away and we dived into this. Uh, bad is stronger than good idea. But let's get back and talk about what we did last week.

MATT: Yes. So, yeah. So last episode, we asked people to identify, first of all, go back to that domain slash area [00:17:00] slash capital that they'd picked up via the exercise, hopefully the week before.

MATT: So, uh, one of the five, identify the one that you, that you most wanna improve. So just one. And then last week we asked 'em on top of that. So once you've got that locked in, then utilize just one again, only one of the three strategies that we presented last episode. So that was, again, in that domain, either bundle something up Yeah.

MATT: Or um, divest. Trade between capitals in order to bolster the most efficient capital that you've identified, or lastly, eliminate something from that particular capital or domain. And we wanted this to be supremely realistic. Yeah. So ideally you'd be habituating it, I mean, or maybe it's like a once off like example you gave of like going through your shoe closet or whatever, and.

MATT: Eliminating a bunch of stuff that way, but either way we want it to be realistic slash sustainable.

DANIEL: Yeah. So the idea is to have that one area. Mm-hmm. Whether it be finance or relationships. Yeah. Or health or you know, for you, you're talking [00:18:00] about over commitment and time. Yeah. I'm talking about my inner life.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. And spirituality. Mm-hmm. But whatever that domain is, to have one practical small shift that you can make in response.

MATT: So where I'm stuck is in the area or the capital of, of physical. So, 'cause that involves both health. Time My health's doing okay I think at the moment. But as you be aware, as we talked about a couple of episodes ago, I just feel like I'm constantly overcommitted with my time.

MATT: So I've said yes to a bunch of things, like all pretty much almost exclusively, like good things, fun things, worthwhile things. Um, often things evolving people and opportunities that I'm more grateful for, right? But, um, I've said like, yes to so many of these, um, that I feel I. Consistently can't deliver on them.

MATT: So I end up letting people and myself down.

DANIEL: We've been friends for a while. I know this is an area where. It kind of ebbs and flows, but Yeah. Well, to be fair, you've suffered,

MATT: you've suffered because you have been on the receiving end of receiving, end of me saying, sure. Dan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can do that.

MATT: Sorry, I can't do it Dan. So, [00:19:00] trying to be a bit more, I suppose, like, uh, focused in. On what the issues are. Uh, the two components that I've identified within that so far is the, like an internal component, an external component. So the internal component is, again, I don't like disappointing people and I'm pretty easily enticed by new opportunities and ventures and fun things and blah, blah, blah, and the spontaneity.

MATT: And it's, you know, it's great. I love like the bright, shiny new objects, right? So Matt, the, uh, party animal. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, you know, more severe middle aged male kinda way, but yeah, sure. Um, yeah, so I like all those things, right? Yep. So it's hard to say no. So it's the internal stuff. There's, that's there, right?

MATT: So motivation, uh, having the conviction, that kind of thing that I need to work on. And then the second component is more of a, just like nuts and bolts organizational, um, just Matt, like just. Somehow reel in and get and corral your calendar.

Yeah.

MATT: Use a diary properly. Like just again, like actually be realistic about how much white space you've got and how much of that white space this new commitment is gonna need before you say yes to it.

DANIEL: And I know there've been times where we've had bookings and you [00:20:00] didn't know we had bookings because your calendar didn't represent us. So that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, that's, this is good DYS therapy for me as well, Matt. All right. So tell you, get stuff off your chest.

MATT: What's one tiny small change you can make? Right now? I'm just like fortunate enough to have a bit of, uh, a bit of, um, uh, I suppose like excess financial capital. So I'm looking at some, uh, some, I've looked at some different apps to try to use to make it easier for me to both, um. Keep an eye on my calendar and use it and for it to more automatically identify when I've got like chunks of time.

MATT: So I'm not saying this is gonna be a silver bullet and I'm not saying it's gonna fix the problem 'cause it doesn't really deal with the internal components. That's still I coming on down the line. But right now I like to divest slash trade, so of my financial capital and buy this app.

DANIEL: That makes a lot of sense.

DANIEL: So mine's a bit simpler in terms of like what I did. Mm-hmm. Uh, so the domain I'm trying to work on is. The inner life. So that wrestle between kind of my faith and spirituality and the way [00:21:00] I used to express it. Yeah. Particularly in my twenties, thirties, early forties. You know, even when I worked in a kind of church context as a pastor and now, you know, I'm trying to work at what does it look like when some, the things I used to do, like prayer and mm-hmm.

DANIEL: Kind of worship, feel like a job To me, I really wrestled actually to put the framework onto it. And so I think, you know, all frameworks. Some frameworks are good and all frameworks are wrong.

Yeah,

DANIEL: and I think this is one where I was like, well, there's no point forcing it. 'cause I didn't think subtraction was quite where I'm what I needed for this particular bit.

DANIEL: Okay. It was more I needed to actually do some reflection and make an internal. Step forward, if that makes sense. So what I did do is I, I put some time aside Okay. To just think about what I needed to do next. Mm-hmm. Or what I could take away. Yep. And it was interesting. I would just, it was more of a random kind of serendipitous conversation.

DANIEL: Uh, I've been coaching a number of, uh, a FL players in Clifton strengths to look at kind of how. Their strengths can shape their on field and off field [00:22:00] leadership. And I was chatting with a guy who, um, had been an a FL player. Uh, and I talked, I talked to 'em actually a few years ago when they were leaving and they weren't exercising.

DANIEL: And I said, how come you're not exercising? You know, you used to be like an elite athlete. Yeah. And they just said, I dunno, I can't get motivated. And uh, I said, why don't you go to the gym? And he said, I hate the gym. Right. Anyway, I had a chat with this same person, uh, last week. And they go to the gym five times a week.

DANIEL: Hmm. And this is 18 months later. Hmm. And they go with their wife every week, you know, and, and I said, I thought you hated the gym. And they said, oh, you don't hate the gym. I, I just couldn't get my head around the fact that I used to be paid to go to the gym. I used to be paid to exercise, which, you know, yeah.

DANIEL: My years freaked up 'cause I used to be paid to pray, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And uh, and I said, well, what changed because I was curious. And he said, oh. I think I just had to, he didn't say I had to reframe it, but essentially he had to reframe it. Mm-hmm. And now the motivations, he loves doing something with his wife in terms of a shared kind of experience.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. Loves feeling good, loves winning [00:23:00] the day. Mm-hmm. So it's the same activity, but it's done with a different motivation and a different. Kind of schema.

MATT: Well, like, I mean, to be fair, like he's wearing a different kind of hat. He's wearing different hat, like completely, like different outfit. Really?

MATT: Yeah. But it's the same activity, right? Yeah. To an extent.

DANIEL: So I, I found that helpful because I, I feel like it's given me the permission to say, actually it's okay that I'm not pushing into some areas like, I don't know, prayer and Bible like I used to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's not that I'm rejecting the value of those things, but I'm just being a bit kind on myself to gimme the space to reframe it so that.

DANIEL: When I dive in in a more deep way, it's an expression of the new season rather than the old. I dunno if that makes sense.

MATT: It does. No, that's, that's quite the moment. That's great. So why don't we now, so like we take the time, we encourage the audience to spend some time in silence trying to chew over and reflect on some of these big ideas that we've been discussing so far.

MATT: And I reckon now be a great time to kind of like just stop, pause, and think. And ask yourself the question, what is like [00:24:00] currently right in your situation right now? So even like take that specific domain or capital area that we've asked people to kind of hone in on. Even in the midst of that there's gonna be something that's sometimes works is okay, doesn't always kind of like fall over.

MATT: Think about what that is. That'd be useful. Mm.

DANIEL: Yeah. What's right. I like

MATT: it. Yeah. What's right?[00:25:00] 

DANIEL: Okay, so Matt, we've been talking about strengths and I wanna talk about the science of strengths, not the science of subtraction. Not the science of subtraction. We're very science heavy here. Yeah. WeDo science, right? Yeah. Yeah. Just don't tell anyone that. But, um, uh, one of my favorite. Kind of tools, I suppose it's the Clifton strengths tool.

DANIEL: It used to be called Strength Finder by the Gallup Organization. Yeah. And it's an online assessment based on like a crazy amount of research that allows you to do an online assessment for 40, 45 minutes and receive the results of what your top five or top 34 themes of talent are, or your strengths. And it's a super helpful tool.

DANIEL: Uh, we use it all the time in space makers. It's just a great tool for [00:26:00] individuals to start exploring what they're good at. I mean, firstly, we don't get any kickbacks for this. This isn't like a commission thing. We just like the tool, just wanna, you know, put the commercial thing out there. I'm asking you to join our pyramid.

DANIEL: Not trying to join our pyramid yet. Yeah. So the, the tool is based on 50 years of research. It's heaps. Okay. From a guy called Don Clifton. He basically was trying to research. And study what success is. Mm-hmm. Okay. So gal, we're trying to understand what makes people successful in every field of life, whether it be nonprofits, corporates, government, they interviewed, uh, what was it?

DANIEL: 2 million successful individuals over this time from 48 countries. There's massive amounts of data. Mm-hmm. Okay. And what they discovered is that there's no formula for success in the sense that there's no one magic personality type that is successful. You can be successful with very different personality types in very different situations.

DANIEL: But the one thing that makes you truly successful is when you know what you're good at. You have a sense of your innate talents or strengths, and you get the opportunity to use them day by day in your role. Okay, so once you can align someone's innate, I. Way of [00:27:00] thinking and acting and behaving and align that with their role.

DANIEL: Well then they amplify what they do when they become successful. So, I mean, it's kind of not rocket science. But then, uh, Gallup will then saying, well then how do we help people identify what they're good at so that they can then align their roles with their strengths? They looked at the data and they created this tool called Clifton Strengths.

DANIEL: I like the tool because it's, it's a bit different in the genesis of the tool compared to, let's say, I don't know, Myers-Briggs or other kind of personality inventories where there were psychological theories that were researched. I. Which doesn't mean they're not valid, but what I like about this is it was the data and the research that became the tool rather than retrofitting it the other way around.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. Um, and so it's really robust. 90% of Fortune 500 companies use Clifton strengths to support the growth of their teams. I've found it so useful with, like, I've worked with, you know, obviously we talked about a FL players. I've worked with nonprofits, I've worked with government, I've worked with universities.

DANIEL: Like it's so in my own team, you know, it's so helpful to know each other and to know each other's strengths and to be able to. Work from your strengths [00:28:00] when you do the assessment, uh, Gallup will rate your themes of talent, which are kinda like strengths, but you need to kind of, you need to practice those to be strengths, but they, they rate your themes of talent from one to 34.

DANIEL: So there are 34 kind of examples in the Clifton strengths set. You know, an example might be strategic or, uh. Relator. Mm-hmm. Or include a, um, they all have kind of relatively simple to understand explanations. Yeah. But you rate to one to 34, but you also focus on the top five, which are the, the signature themes, which are top five themes of talent.

DANIEL: Okay. Yeah. So bottom line, you, you find out your top 34 themes and you work out the top five.

Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: And you read the top five, you read the description, and it can be super helpful. Great. The last bit of theory, which is helpful is that it's a very individualized tool. Mm-hmm. So it, it won't put you in a. A box or a quadrant, the chances of someone having the same top five themes as you.

DANIEL: In the same order of one in 33 million. See, that's amazing. That is, I really am a [00:29:00] unique snowflake. You're

MATT: a really a snowflake. That's great. Look, there's

DANIEL: 20, there's 26 letters in the alphabet. Right? And how much, yeah, I know. I know. Now, now hang on more, sorry. Just slow down the sides. Okay, Dan, now I'm teaching you something.

DANIEL: And, uh, or how many, how many different combinations of letters and words can you have from that? So it makes sense if there's 34 themes, which are like a language mm-hmm. Of strength. Mm-hmm. It makes sense. You know, the combinations are almost limitless. Yeah. Um, but also people who focus on their themes on a regular basis, they're three times more likely to say they have an excellent quality of life.

DANIEL: Six times more likely to be engaged in their job. So look, the bottom line is if you can focus on what works mm-hmm. In yourself. Mm-hmm. If you can understand what works in your team mm-hmm. You can recognize how different you are, but also celebrate those differences from a strengths perspective, it's just really helpful.

MATT: So I can see the sense in why the, like on the top five, I'm curious, is it also useful sort to know, like say your bottom five outta the 34?

DANIEL: Yeah. Well, originally. I [00:30:00] think originally Gallup used to only suggest the top five. I have an issue with starting with the top 34. Yeah. I like people to start with the top five and only see them, and then once they've done the exploration of strengths in like a group setting or a coaching session, then we unlock the rest.

DANIEL: The reason is as soon as people look at the top 34, if they're unfamiliar with the tool mm-hmm. Guess what they look at?

Yeah. They

DANIEL: look at the top five mm and then they go straight to the bottom five. That's, and they try to focus what's on, what's wrong? Mm. And what doesn't work and how to fix it because bad.

DANIEL: Good. Yeah. I'm always, I'm constantly amazed. So I'll be, I'll be coaching a group of people. We will have done a discovery session. We would've been talking about like strengths and the research of strengths and why it's important to focus on strengths and, and people invariably say, oh, how do I fix my weaknesses?

DANIEL: Mm. And these are the bottom five. You know, how do I fix them? Or, or actually, I know we're talking about strengths, but these top five, these are the problems with the top five and this is how they're ruining my life. You know, like they're, the weaknesses of my top five we're so ingrained in weakness.

DANIEL: Methodologies mm-hmm. That we really [00:31:00] struggle to celebrate. Um, yeah. And particularly in an Aussie audience, you know, I think focusing on work what works and celebrating your strengths. Is a very un Australian process.

MATT: Well, it doesn't sit easy with me.

DANIEL: Yeah. You know, whereas like maybe, you know, our American colleagues who I really respect, they're more comfortable with celebrating what they're good at.

DANIEL: Yeah. I actually think we, you know, Brits and, and Aussies, maybe New Zealanders can learn from that. It's

MATT: actually to an extent, I've got no time for self-aggrandizing.

DANIEL: But Matt, you're awesome. You're just the most amazing person

MATT: ever. Thanks. Thanks. That like three, I think only two more to go. That's great.

MATT: Yep. Yep. And have I said I like the color of your shirt and what a great watch you have. Seriously. Like, I mean, part of me just would've thought just like knowing almost like what landmines not to walk on. I. Because you can have this, this great ideal. I think I'd be fantastic at this job. And it's, but then I go, whoa, look out.

MATT: It actually doesn't accord with your strengths, like whatsoever. I mean, I get, yeah, sorry, but you could go about it the other way and saying, well, if it doesn't match with my top five, why would I be doing it? That's, that's a way to get around that. Well,

DANIEL: I mean, it's both and it's not. I mean, we, we, it's not excuse [00:32:00] finding.

DANIEL: Yeah. Like there's a point where of course you have to work on your weaknesses. Yeah. Of course. You have to turn up mm-hmm. And do the basics. You just won't thrive Yeah. In a role. Mm-hmm. If you're always trying to fix what doesn't work Yeah. You'll only be mediocre.

Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: And so eventually, you know, I think when you're 20, and we talked about this in the last season, you know, when you're 20 you need to try lots of stuff.

DANIEL: Yeah. Yeah. Because you don't even know who you are.

Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: And you, you need to turn up. Every day. Yeah. And you need to do the shitty jobs. Mm. And you need to try lots of different things because it's about building character and having a sense of what you're good at. But there comes a point where you'll never thrive.

DANIEL: Yeah. Unless you actually work out who you are, how you're wired. And yes. To, to then choose jobs, which largely align Yeah. With, with those roles. Recognizing that, of course, every job has things you like to do. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And you're paid to do the job. Yeah. But you don't want that to be the 60% or 70% of your job.

DANIEL: Yeah. If you do that, you'll never really thrive. That's good.

DANIEL: All [00:33:00] right. So Matt, uh, we've talked a lot about, you know, the theory of strengths, but you know, at the end of the day, you'll only get unstuck if you can apply it to yourself. And so what you, what we want people to do is essentially start to have a positive frame on their life and to look at what they're good at, not what they're bad at, in a way.

DANIEL: To help 'em move forward. Uh, we have two different activities that you could do and we'd like you to choose one of them. There's a free option Yes. And a paid option. Yes. So why don't we go with the DIY free option to discover your strengths.

MATT: Yeah. Look, and this is still great, right? Because I'm probably, where you don't wanna start off is gonna say someone like your mom and say, Hey mom, just tell me like what I'm good at.

MATT: Okay. Like, that's, you know, that's gonna give you some information I'd like to ask my mom. It'd be interesting to see what she says. I already had it and you don't really want the answer. Love mom. Yeah. So, um, so we've put together a list of 50, right? So 50 strengths in alphabetical order. And so it's really comprehensive and this is great again 'cause uh, I think unless you've got some kind of prompt there, it's just easy to kind of get [00:34:00] stuck in a very narrow band of, uh, potential strengths.

MATT: So what we'd be encouraging you to do is download our document. Our resource here that has the 50 strengths. Spend some time in self-reflection, like looking at it and say, like, marking off like what you see as the top five. Or even better find someone who, you know, who you trust, someone who's got some history with you.

MATT: So again, like they're not, you know, it's, it's someone who, who's got a pretty thorough comprehension and understanding has seen you across. Different multiple domains doing different things. They're gonna have to like the best take on what your strengths are, ask them to do it for you and to pick a top five from that list.

MATT: And maybe if you feel comfortable, offer to reciprocate as well. Yeah, that sounds

DANIEL: good. So look, it's, it's a broad list of 50 strengths. Yeah. It'll get you thinking. Yeah. You know, you'll probably resonate with one or two or five. Mm-hmm. You might think of others. So it's a launchpad. Yeah. These aren't the list of Clifton strengths top 34.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. These are just a generic list of strengths. Yeah. That will help you. Yeah. So you can get it at [00:35:00] spacemaker.au/ S3. For season three, it not only has this list, but it has the five capitals, exercises, and all the activities we're gonna have for this entire season. Yeah, that's great. Uh, okay. But then there's the paid option.

DANIEL: There's a paid option. Okay. So the paid option is to go do your top five Clifton strengths assessment. If you, there's a link in the show notes, or simply write top five. Mm-hmm. Uh, Clifton strengths into Google, you'll find the gout website. Mm-hmm. Uh, again, we don't get commissioned for this, but what you can do is, I think it's about.

DANIEL: Uh, 40 or $50. Okay. Yeah. So I'm not, not exorbitant. It's not exorbitant. No. For the top five. Yeah. Uh, you will then sign up to the website. You'll do an online assessment. It takes about 40 to 45 minutes. You need uninterrupted time. Yeah. And it's a fascinating assessment. It's not like mm-hmm. Uh, a test where you work out what the answers are by the end of it.

DANIEL: 'cause there's kind of this repeat kind of four quadrant cycle. Okay. Yeah. Uh, but anyway, you do the assessment, you'll end up with a report and Gallup will list your top. 34 behind the scenes, but you'll get your top five signature themes of talent. Okay. The top five? Yeah. [00:36:00] And you'll get a very clear description of what they are and how they function

MATT: behind the scenes.

MATT: Does that mean behind the scenes, do I get access to my bottom four as well, or my bottom five? Well,

DANIEL: you can pay for your top 34 and get the whole lot, but I would suggest starting with your top five. Okay. Okay. So you focus on what works, not what. Doesn't work. If you're interested, you know, this is a shameless plug, but I love this kind of ability to coach people.

Mm.

DANIEL: Uh, if you go to Space Makers au slash Strengths, you can just buy a coaching package, which is a one and a half hour coaching session with one of us in terms of, um, one of my c and strengths team members and space makers. And you get the top five included as part of that package. It's a great way to explore it in depth.

DANIEL: Yeah. If you think that'll be useful. Yeah. So that's spacemaker au. Forward slash strength.

MATT: So to summarize, what we'd like you to do this week is one of the two options. So option one, just download our free resource of the 50 strengths. Yeah. And undertake that with a friend against someone who knows your world.

MATT: So if nothing else, do that. But option two, if you are so inclined, why not? Again, [00:37:00] 40 to $50. Google, Gallup, Clifton strength finder tool, and undertake that assessment. Do that for a more kind of thorough, comprehensive take on what your top five strengths are. I reckon that's fantastic. Hmm.

DANIEL: Yeah, Emily, super helpful.

DANIEL: Yeah, I know people will find it useful. So Matt, next week, we are halfway through season three. Yeah. 10 episodes. Uh, and our promise, or the thing we'd love to see people achieve is to get unstuck in one domain of their life by. Creating one meaningful small habit. Uh, and so hopefully you've subtracted and reduced a bit of mm-hmm.

DANIEL: Clutter from your life by now. This is the first step of kind of making shifts from your strengths. We're gonna have one more strengths conversation next week, and we're gonna get practical about how you can actually use your strengths to focus on what works and get unstuck. We're gonna look at three strategies.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. Uh, we're gonna look at the counterintuitive ideas of bending. Amplifying and partnering with others to actually use strengths [00:38:00] to get unstuck.

MATT: Okay, so safe to say we're looking at the science of the strategies of strength, the science

DANIEL: of the strategies of the science of strengths. That's

MATT: right here on the Science Based Spacemaker podcast.

MATT: That's great, great. I came here for the company. I stayed for the science.

DANIEL: Okay. But on that very serious note. Hopefully this has been useful. Focus on what works this week, not just what doesn't work. And we'll see you next time on The Space Makers. Until next time, make space see you,

NARRATOR: the Space Makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL: Big thanks to our sponsor. Bulk Nutrients. Enjoy a 5% discount on protein powders and health supplements for orders over 45 [email protected] au. Just enter the code space makers.

NARRATOR: If you feel busy, overloaded and struggling to keep up, the Spacemaker Dojo is here to help. This online community is for busy professionals like you dedicated to making space together For less than $75 a month, [00:39:00] you can access our best selling courses like Email Ninja and Priority Samurai.

NARRATOR: Join Live Zoom training sessions and share your learning with others. Dive into the dojo to regain control of your time and make space in a supportive accountable community. Visit spacemaker au slash dojo to find out more. Until next time, make space.