DANIEL: [00:00:00] Hey there, space makers. I'm Daniel Sih, joined by my good friend and co-host Matt Bain. This is the third season of The Space Makers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life more than a podcast. This podcast will help you get unstuck in one area of life. One step at a time by helping you shift the way you live and work.

DANIEL: A warm thanks to our sponsor, banjos Bakery Cafes who are expanding across Australia and looking for new franchisees. If you are hardworking and business savvy, visit franchise.banjos.com au and save 10% on franchise fees by mentioning space makers.

NARRATOR: The space makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL: Hi everyone.

DANIEL: Welcome back to the Space Makers season three, and we are exploring what it looks like to get unstuck if you feel stuck in an area or a domain of your life and need to get unstuck. Uh, and I'm here. With the man, the myth and the legend. The one and only Matt Bain. Welcome. [00:01:00] Thanks.

MATT: Thanks, Dan. It's great to be here.

MATT: That's some,

DANIEL: that's some mighty high expectations. I know we can only go up or down from there, but, um, seriously, it's good to have you back here. Today we're gonna talk about the science of subtraction. That's great. I don't think I've done that since grade three. I don't think I have. And I still use my fingers to actually add and subtract.

DANIEL: Yeah. But we're gonna talk about why when you are un uh, when you're feeling stuck. It's super helpful, not just to add more to your busy life. Mm-hmm. And why it's important to consider doing less, not more.

MATT: Love it. Yeah. So, removal, removal,

DANIEL: removal. So here's the thing most of us add when we're trying to solve a problem.

DANIEL: We get busy at work and so we try to add. New meetings, new projects, new ai, new things to our schedule to try to fix, getting stuck. You know, in our home life, we fill our homes with clutter and then we wonder what to do. Uh, we even feel our social schedule so much that we feel like we need a break from our weekends.

DANIEL: So the, the human bias tends to be adding as a way of solving problems to [00:02:00] do more, to find something new to do, to fix our problems. And yet we're gonna talk about. The beauty of actually simplifying our life Yeah. Of doing less and of eliminating or subtracting when we're

MATT: stuck. I'd say even by beyond trying to solve problems, just accumulating seems to be my natural bent.

MATT: Mm.

DANIEL: Yeah. Look, I, I always, I often think about entropy and how, you know, things naturally degrade if you look at the science of entropy, but I think the same is true when it comes to accumulation in our culture that it just, it feels to me that if you don't. Actively push against adding up and accumulating.

DANIEL: You just end up with more stuff in your work, in your relationships, in your, in your life. Uh, and so I just think it's really helpful to pause and think about how can we do less, not more, or at least to do less of the wrong things, to do more of the right things. In order to move forward.

MATT: Awesome. So let's, uh, subtract and I believe as part of this episode, we are gonna be going through both the science of subtraction, and we're gonna be looking at three, I believe, three specific strategies to help us reduce

DANIEL: Mm.

DANIEL: Yeah. How to bundle, how [00:03:00] to trade, and how to eliminate to help people get unstuck. Excellent.

DANIEL: So Matt, this is episode three mm-hmm. Of season three, each episode. We like to talk about what we've done because, well, partly we wanna get unstuck, but partly we wanna encourage our listeners to do something with this information to get them unstuck.

MATT: Yeah, that's it. So last episode, we. Um, promoted the five capitals exercise, which we've done.

MATT: So there was a download link attached. Hopefully people like at home downloaded that. Do you wanna give a quick summary of the five capitals? Yeah, yeah. Five capitals. So this is like a great way of looking at your life as a whole by kind of, you know, categorizing into five domains. They are spiritual, so the inner kind of reflective life.

MATT: It could be spiritual, uh, could be spirituality, it could be philosophy, but it's, it's all about the inner life. Then we've got the relational. So the relational capital is, um, your interpersonal. Relations, so friends, family, et cetera, et cetera. We've got the intellectual capital, so that's like the life of the mind.

MATT: It may be involving, hopefully it'll involve what you do for work, et cetera, et cetera, but also hobbies. Then we've got the [00:04:00] physical capital. So the physical capital. This one involves both your health, so your physical health, but also really importantly, your time. And then lastly, we've got probably, obviously the financial capital.

MATT: So this is just like, you know, the crass nuts and bolts. Money coming in, money coming out.

DANIEL: Yeah. So the beautiful thing about this is you're taking the idea of capitals, something you know, that you see in the financial realm, you know, buying and selling, et cetera. And you are, you are moving it to the broader domain of, you know, your relationships, your intellect, your spirituality, et cetera.

DANIEL: And using that to help you make decisions about. What matters to you, where you're struggling and where you wanna grow your capital. So the diagnostic about the domains of your life. Mm-hmm. Uh, where you are overcooking things, and where you're undercook things. Hmm. And really to help people work out where they wanna get unstuck.

MATT: I found it really useful. I had like, probably some intuition, we talked about that I think like last episode where, uh, where I figured I was gonna be stuck. Mm. But this just gave it even more crystal clarity. So it was obvious. It was really obvious that my particular domain where I'm stuck, is it [00:05:00] physical in the sense of time?

MATT: I don't have enough time. I've overcommitted in that capital. Yeah.

DANIEL: Okay. And that actually connects with a lot of other capitals for you, doesn't it? Because the reason you, I, I mean, we've chatted and the reason you struggle so much with overcommitment and. Time is because it impacts your relationships, it impacts your, you know, sense of mental health.

DANIEL: It impacts your kind of career. The squeeze is apparent in other areas that you care more about than time. Right. Yeah,

MATT: that's a really good point. Um, again, for the sake of the exercise and particularly as a diagnostic tool, it's really handy to be able to kind of. Um, I suppose borders between the different areas of your life.

MATT: Mm-hmm. But in reality, they all intersect.

DANIEL: In fact, every year I do that activity every year. Mm-hmm. Um, because I run a masterclass with a bunch of leaders and that's one of the activities we do at the start of the year. So it's a good way of me reflecting each year about where my capitals are. What my current state is and where I want to head.

DANIEL: And the last few years I've actually put my spiritual capital quite low and I've not wanted to invest in it. 'cause I've wanted to build my business. I've wanted to invest in friendships and family. [00:06:00] But yeah, the, it, it reinforced that actually I, I have this desire to actually put more. Time and energy into my inner life again, which is the area I've felt stuck.

DANIEL: It's a good reinforcement that I do need to put some time into this area of my life because it does impact how I feel about other areas as well. Yeah, right. So Matt, let's talk about the science of why it's helpful to do less, not more, or to remove things and declutter things from your life if you feel stuck.

DANIEL: Sounds great. The science

MATT: of

DANIEL: subtraction. The science of subtraction. Uh, so look, this came out of book, a book that I read by Lady Clocks. Uh, an American author. He's a professor on the intersection of engineering and behavioral science. I think he used to be an architect, which makes sense. The whole less is more philosophy.

DANIEL: But he was basically studying this, uh, premise, this idea that humans neglect, subtraction as a. Like a default in the way we solve problems. And so it is fascinating that [00:07:00] there's a bunch of research in this book. Uh, he, for example, gave people some complex puzzles to complete or maybe Lego tasks, and there were two equal and opposite ways of solving the problem.

DANIEL: One was to add, let's say two Lego blocks and the other was to remove two Lego blocks, or one was to add a line in this puzzle, and the other was to remove a line. Okay? Mm-hmm. Uh, but then when. Participants were given these puzzles to solve, and this was repeated again and again in different contexts.

DANIEL: What the scientists found was that people almost always added, and not only did they always add, so they added the Lego blocks rather than the remove, but they didn't even see elimination as an option. Okay? And so clots caused this subtraction, neglect, this phenomenon, this, uh, internal bias in the human condition where we try to solve our issues by adding more and by.

DANIEL: Building things onto our life rather than even seeing the option of simplifying our life or removing to get the same outcome.

MATT: Hmm.

DANIEL: This is [00:08:00] actually a really profound idea because when I work with people, you know, all around Australia and globally, I, I do a lot of work with managers and leaders, business owners.

DANIEL: And we're all smashed for time. Like we lack space, which is what Space Makers is about. And you know, this is in our work context, you know, we we're adding meetings, we're adding ai, we're adding new apps, new projects, uh, and, and whenever you do a strategic plan, how do we improve the, the future? We add new things.

DANIEL: Do you know what I mean? Like we, we don't sit down and say, what can we remove? We ask the question, how can we add. We do this in our personal lives, which is why our houses get full. We do this with our social schedules. Uh, I just think we have a culture of more, and that's exhausting. And actually when you feel stuck and you feel like you're losing in an area of life, what what we're encouraging you to think about is could you actually make progress by taking something out of your life or by doing something less, rather than just adding something more.

DANIEL: Once you open your eyes [00:09:00] to those possibilities. There are lots of possibilities. Sure, sure. Do you see this?

MATT: Yeah, uh, I do, I do, but I think it's really hard. 'cause if most people, no, let me reverse that. If I'm, like most people, uh, particularly people who have felt stuck in one domain for a while, so they're conscious of that.

MATT: I think there's part of you that can intuit. The way out is via subtraction or reduction. So you know that the option is there and you know, it's probably the smart play. But again, if I'm like most people, I always feel I, that that's, that's too much of a generalization. I frequently feel like it's some kind of concession.

MATT: Or it's a compromise or it's a failure to actually reduce, you know? Um, and I think that's, 'cause inevitably it feels like when I'm doing that, I don't focus so much on what is there to be gained. I'm way too aware of the fact that I'm closing down options. That's how it feels. Yeah. [00:10:00] I'm shutting down options so.

MATT: I can like tell myself the mantra again and again. Less is more. Less is more. Less is more. But I think my basic operating system is still very much geared towards, no, no, no. More is more. Yeah, more is more. More is more. And the traje, the, uh, trajectory of like most of our kind of, you know, I guess like upper middle class, first world lives is about accumulation.

MATT: And expansion more and more until you get to a point where st where things are started to be forcibly removed from you, you know, like force reduction. So you get, you know, if you live long enough, you probably get your license taken away from your Yeah. Traveling's gonna be more, more and more difficult.

MATT: So loss is like, traction

DANIEL: is a loss. Yeah, that's right. It's loss, loss of independence. It's a loss of freedom. Exactly. It's, it's a confronting of your finality. Yes. As opposed to a strategic way of moving forward. Yeah.

MATT: Yeah. That's right. That's right. So before, before that's rested from me, forcibly. I'm just gonna keep on accumulating and gathering.

MATT: And expanding.

DANIEL: And it's interesting 'cause you mentioned culture. Mm-hmm. And I, I, I wrestle with, you know, like the, uh, the research has suggested this is in building the human [00:11:00] condition a bit like loss aversion. Mm-hmm. The idea that we, um, we experience loss more than we celebrate gains. Yeah. So I think you feel it more.

DANIEL: You feel it more. Yeah. So the, I think there is something about the human condition that, um, makes us want to add. More to solve problems rather than reduce, but I also think it's, we are shaped by our context. You know, we're in a consumer society where, you know, the entrepreneurs always get more money and they build more things and like, like all the advertising around our lives suggests that the way to solve our issues is to buy something.

MATT: Yeah.

DANIEL: Um, but I, but it's interesting 'cause I, part of this, um, set of studies that I read compared. Humans, you know, people in the western world, so let's say Australia, America, New Zealand, Canada, uh, with the Eastern world, so places like China, Japan, areas of Southeast Asia, and even the language that people use is slightly different.

DANIEL: And I think that probably links to our worldview. So when people in the western world were asked to describe an unformed piece of art mm-hmm. Okay. You know, [00:12:00] people, people are asked, okay. Think about, uh, and describe what you think about immediately when you think about art that hasn't yet been produced.

DANIEL: In the Western world, people almost always described a blank. Canvas, and then you add mm-hmm. Yeah. Ink or you add art or, you know, you add paint to it in order to create the artwork. Uh, whereas in, in China and Japan, when those, uh, when everyday people were asked the same question, I want you to think about an unformed piece of art.

DANIEL: What do you imagine Basically came up with something very different. The majority of people described a rock and that. Stone had not yet been chiseled away to become a statue. Hmm. Okay. Which is fascinating and maybe it's the art that they look at more, but uh, yeah. The, I you think about that, the idea of forming an a piece of art by chiseling away rock mm-hmm.

DANIEL: Is quite different. It's about subtraction and eliminating until you discover Yeah. The beauty within. Yeah.

MATT: So. But maybe another way of saying that is that in order to realize potential, the potential of something, again, do you add to it or [00:13:00] do you again, remove from it. Take away. Yeah, take it out.

DANIEL: And I definitely think we need to add as part of our strategy for moving forward.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. It's not like and or, yeah. But the problem is in the western world, and because of our human wiring, we tend to bias more and we tend to. Neglect, subtraction. And that can be an issue, particularly in a, a world where we're already feeling busy and overloaded.

MATT: Mm.

DANIEL: Um, I do have a quote that I love. Uh, this is from Michelangelo.

DANIEL: Oh yeah. He was a party dude, wasn't he? He was a party dude. He wasn't actually, he was actually a Western artist. So this kind of ruins my whole analogy, but, uh, he says this, the sculpture is already complete within the marble block. Before I start my work, it is already there. I just have to chisel away the superfluous material.

DANIEL: Uh, there's another quote he apparently said, which is, I saw the angel in the marble and, and carved until I set him free. And I really love that idea that what if we looked at our lives a bit like that? You know, what if we actually really took seriously, what part of the story could I remove and still have the story?

DANIEL: You know what? Mm-hmm. [00:14:00] What part of my work could I simplify? What part of my relationships could I simplify? Because not just about doing less. The aim is you want to create space in your life to maybe have the time to think and reflect on what needs to change in order to do more of the right things.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. And, and yet just adding and adding and adding just ends up feeling cluttered.

MATT: Like that makes sense to me. But I guess where I kind of, uh, where I experience personally, some of the difficulty is that, um, to use your language, the right thing. Mm. So I, so that's, that's gonna be an evaluation. It's gonna be like a judgment call and, and determining what the right thing is, is gonna be at the expense of a bunch of potential wrong things.

MATT: And again, so discerning between those can be difficult. So like, Michelangelo can have his angel, but that's gonna be the expense of, like, it means he's not gonna be like doing the Mother Mary, for example. You know? So one's gonna cost him like the other

DANIEL: Yeah. You know, so, yeah. So, yeah. So it lasts a trade off if you subtract.

DANIEL: Yeah. If you remove your options and you commit. To not doing that next thing. [00:15:00] Yes. Well then you're, you are limiting your options. Yeah, yeah. That's right. You and that, that's a world view on that, right? Yeah, that's right. 'cause you're not, 'cause you're not keeping them open any

MATT: longer.

DANIEL: You're not keeping your open.

DANIEL: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we might talk about this in a future mm-hmm. Series because I think freedom Yeah. And choice mm-hmm. Are super. Entwined in this, the idea that is true freedom, having as many options as possible. Mm-hmm. Or is true freedom limiting your options? You know, like the classic being Yes.

DANIEL: When I become, you know, when I married my wife and chose, you know, for her to be my lover for the rest of my life and vice versa, we limited every other option.

MATT: Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: But there was great freedom in that. Uh, whereas there's actually less freedom in opening our options. You see that in lots of different areas, but we're probably diving somewhere we.

MATT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. Yeah. I mean, I'm curious as to what like that great freedom was, but yeah, we can talk about that.

DANIEL: The freedom to be alone and watch reruns by myself. All right, let's move on.[00:16:00] 

DANIEL: Okay, Matt, let's get practical and we are working through. The shift framework in season three, which is the, the acrostic that guides the direction of how we're shaping these 10 episodes. So do you wanna run through the shift framework?

MATT: So, okay, so shift five elements. Number one, select a domain to focus on, or maybe like to use some of the language that we have recently.

MATT: Select a capital. Yes. Okay. Select capital like to work on. Okay. Yeah, so we want to keep this realistic, so don't be like looking at all 5, 4, 3, or even two. Once, but just select once. Yeah. That's where we are now. Great. And, and

DANIEL: you even that is, uh, a process of elimination. Yeah. Yeah. That if I feel like, you know, I'm struggling in my finances and my relationships.

DANIEL: Yes. And my career's not good and my health's not good. You can't work on it all at the same time. Yeah.

MATT: That's it.

DANIEL: Uh, so pick. One, which seems to be the right lever. Yeah. And trust that if you can improve that domain just by a little bit and get unstuck there, it'll have a ripple effect. Yeah. [00:17:00] Ripple effect.

DANIEL: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the aim to pick one domain. Yes.

MATT: Just once. So that's, uh, s Yeah. Next we've got H. So this is for harness your strengths and we're gonna be diving to this next week. So again, it's easy just to kind of go straight to our weaknesses when it comes to trying to get un. Dock, but we are gonna really be pushing No, no.

MATT: The best lever to pull in the first instance is your strengths.

DANIEL: Yeah, absolutely.

MATT: Or at least you'll be pushing that. I'll be pushing back a little bit. We'll see how it goes. Okay. Yeah. So, but it's interesting, we're talking about

DANIEL: subtracting now. Yeah. But when you do add mm-hmm. You wanna start by adding on what's working, not, what's not working we'll.

MATT: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. We'll get there. We'll get there. And then we've got, I, so I imagine various paths forward. So again, we don't wanna be kind of like locked into saying, well there's like, there's only one. We would imagine we wanna have options in front of us. That's the I. And then, uh, the F is about forging a path via action.

MATT: So we wanna forge a way forward via action. So again, there's a place for reflection and introspection, et cetera, et cetera. But we're gonna be suggesting really going with. Action.

DANIEL: Yeah. And it's almost the opposite of what we're saying now, actually. We want you [00:18:00] to do less, not more. Yeah. But there comes a point, we need to do more.

DANIEL: Yeah. Yeah. And, and so we'll get to that part of the framework. Yeah. But just not at the start.

MATT: Yeah, that's right. Not at the start. And then t conclude is travel alongside others. Like we've already kind of intimated, we think that change has the greatest chance of both, I guess effectiveness and also longevity.

MATT: If you, uh, embark on that. With the right people around you. That's

DANIEL: what, right. Alright, so we're on the s we're talking about the domain. Mm-hmm. Uh, but once you've picked a domain of your life mm-hmm. The best way to move forward, we think is to just simplify your life. Make a bit of space. Yeah. 'cause that space will then give you the capacity to do the other things we're gonna talk about next.

DANIEL: Yeah, that's right. So we're gonna talk about three practical. Strategies. Mm-hmm. To eliminate essentially, or to subtract.

MATT: Yeah, that's right. And none of these are about adding, because like we like safe to assume that our audience out there, like us, they've got no more space. Yeah. Or yeah. Or, um, time to add more stuff on.

MATT: Right. Yeah. So we're assuming that people are already overloaded and busy.

DANIEL: Yeah. So that Yeah. And that's a good assumption. Yeah. And therefore, if people want to change something, you can't just say, Hey, I've got an [00:19:00] idea. I'm gonna add it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to subtract before you can add. Yeah. So the three strategies that I found super helpful, and this is.

DANIEL: You know, for my life, but also the people I coach, uh, is to bundle to trade and to eliminate. So we'll talk about them. Bundle trade, eliminate. Now we've talked about bundling in the past because I think I talked about, you know, connecting, uh, our friendship with the podcast. I dunno if that was the so point.

DANIEL: Yeah. But I've been bundled. You've been bundled many a time. But, uh, this is like the third season of being bundled, man. I know. Third season of being bundled. Yeah. But, um, look, bundling's a simple idea, but I really like it. I think it's. The simplest to grasp, and it's really practical bundling is basically the idea that if you want to extend activity in a particular area of life.

DANIEL: Well then one way to do it is to combine that goal or that activity with something you currently do. So it doesn't take more time. It may take more energy, but it's not adding something. The classic is to, to bundle or to connect your desire to, [00:20:00] to have relationships with people or friendships, uh, or quality time with loved ones.

DANIEL: And to connect it with something that you are already doing. Uh, so an example for me, last season we talked a lot about, um, friendship. Mm. And you know, in the midlife squeeze it's hard to. Keep old friends, it's hard to make new friends and I've really felt convicted by that. And I wanted to invest more in friends.

DANIEL: Uh, and I was very, very grateful. I dunno 'cause I listened to the podcast, but one of my clients who is also a friend now, basically said, we, we play pickleball with a bunch of guys every fortnight. Do you wanna come along? And I came and I played a game of pickleball. I've never played it before, but you know, I played tennis when I was young.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. So it's not that hard. Okay. And, uh, and it was super fun. And I was like, I haven't had fun like this for ages. And so I kind of, I don't tell them now, they'll un invite me, but I bundle because I get to exercise. Yeah. And I get to hang out with friends every fortnight. Whereas I used to go to the gym anyway, so now on a Friday, once a fortnight.

DANIEL: Mm. Yeah. I play pickleball instead.

MATT: Yeah. Like don't feel bad about that. [00:21:00] Chances are they've actually bundled you first. You said realize did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just, from where you stand, you bundle other people. Sometimes you're gonna get bundled. Yeah, yeah. Just don't jump people that, yeah. Um. Yeah, so well, like that sounds great.

MATT: Yeah. Um, but it's hard for me not to kind of see that, so, so it's not, it's certainly not adding anything, but you're still doing, like to some degree, you still are inserting another activity without actually it costing you more time. So it's not. Is that technically subtracting or is it more like efficiency hack?

DANIEL: Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, uh, pseudo subtraction. Let's go that. So it's definitely an efficiency hack. Oh yeah. That's good. That's good. But, um, the best story I have is, uh, I was coaching a group of people again, I, I had take six people each year through a master class series, and we meet every fortnight. And, uh, we did this activity in terms of bundling, trading, subtracting, and, uh, one of my clients, she was, um, very, very busy, very smart.

DANIEL: Person with a very busy job. And, uh, she lived by herself and said the thing she hates most is cooking. 'cause she hates eating [00:22:00] by herself. And you know, it's hard to cook meals by herself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so she got a bit creative when she thought about these strategies and she thought, actually I've got another friend who is also busy and single lives by themselves and probably doesn't like cooking by themselves either.

DANIEL: What if we actually hung out on a Monday night? We can, you know, have some drinks together. We'll cook for the week together, we'll share recipes and we'll eat a meal together on a Monday night, but then freeze stuff or take stuff away for the rest of the week. Hmm. Uh, so she gave it a go a year later. I had a conversation with her and she's like, this is just fantastic.

DANIEL: I, I, I still do this. Wow. Didn't take more time. 'cause she still had to cook. In fact, it actually did subtract because it's easier to cook with two people for five meals than it is. Yeah. Yeah. As an individual to cook for five meals. Yeah. Uh, she built a relationship with someone. They, she felt less lonely.

DANIEL: She had more connection. Mm-hmm. Uh, and probably even saved some money. So that was a win-win.

MATT: Yeah. That's great. That's, that's a good example of bundling.

DANIEL: So Matt, we've got two more strategies to talk about trading and eliminating, but I. There's a lot in [00:23:00] bundling itself. You know, I think you can really pause and, and reflect and think about how that could impact your life and how it might relate to your life.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. Uh, so should we have a bit of

MATT: silence now? Sounds great. Okay. Go. Well, and maybe use that silence to consider. Is there an activity that you are already doing that's conducive to bundling? I.[00:24:00] 

MATT: I hope that was useful for you to spend that just working out. Is there something that you're already doing that you can further bundle now? That was the first strategy outta three. Dan. I'd love to hear more about the next one, which is divesting or trading.

DANIEL: Yeah, so look, trading's a slightly different idea.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. And it. It takes a bit more time to get your head around than bundling, but it's also super helpful if you want to do more by doing less. Uh, and it's the idea that you have a number of capitals, again, you've got kind of investments in different areas, let's say the financial or relational. Yeah. Or spiritual or intellectual.

DANIEL: But, um, if you are strong in one area of life or one capital of life, you can actually divest or trade those capitals. [00:25:00] To actually boost a different area of life where you're struggling, which is really smart if you have lots of one area. Mm-hmm. You know, lots of intellect or lots of finances. So, lemme give you an example.

DANIEL: Uh, I have a friend a number of years ago I was having a chat with 'em and they said, oh, they found their dream house and they've, you know, signed kind of a contract pending finance. The bottom line is they couldn't get finance. Uh, their job didn't quite allow it to happen. They didn't quite have the, the, you know, the right numbers on paper.

DANIEL: They knew they could actually pay for their loan for various reasons, but um, they went to a number of banks and only one bank came back to them and they were 17 grand short. And so they're like, well, we can't do it. We've only got seven days left. And I thought about it. I'd actually been reading this book and been thinking about the five capitals.

DANIEL: Okay. And I thought, actually, these guys are super generous. They've, they don't have, you know, enormous amounts of money because they've spent the last decade caring for people and being a great friend and supporting people in need and [00:26:00] just being good people and good citizens. And I thought, you guys have heaps of relational capital, but you're struggling with 17 grand of financial capital.

DANIEL: So I just said, look, why don't we. I didn't say, you know, how about we trade your finance, your relational capital for financial capital? But essentially that's what I was thinking. How about we put a GoFundMe page up and let's just see what happens. So we put up a GoFundMe page and said, look, we need 17 grand.

DANIEL: It has to be a donation. It's not like a loan. Does anyone want to help out? These people, I sent it to my relational networks. 'cause I have relational capital.

MATT: Yeah.

DANIEL: They sent to their relational networks. Mm-hmm. And we raised 17 grand in Yeah. Seven days they got their house and it was a win-win situation.

DANIEL: Okay? Mm-hmm. Uh, people who gave were grateful because they got to support that story and they leveraged their relational capital. Now, if they hadn't been generous and if they didn't have wide networks, if they hadn't supported people. It wouldn't have worked. Yeah. You can't just put up a GoFundMe page.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But, um, they were trading one capital for the next

MATT: interesting. Um. I wonder then like, just like presumably people have a good [00:27:00] idea if they've done the exercise as to again, what areas, so which out of the five they may have plenty of capital in. Yeah. Yep. So in that example though, like, um, would it also kind of carry through that once you put out that call that your relational capital.

MATT: Been like it had been depleted. Well, I think probably, yeah. '

DANIEL: cause then if they asked for another GoFundMe, that's one. Yeah, that's what I was thinking month later. If you asked for another, like GoFundMe. So yeah, I probably did deplete some of my relational capital on. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, it doesn't always work that way.

DANIEL: It's not always a zero sum game. Okay. Sometimes it's just like a win-win. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I think that's a good example. Yeah. Okay. Now that's a bit of a, you know, uh. An out of the box example. Mm-hmm. But I think you can trade any capital for any other capital. Yeah. So the, the most common example would be financial capital.

DANIEL: Mm-hmm. I've got enough money. Mm-hmm. And I don't have enough time. Yeah. So what do you do?

MATT: Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: What do you do? What are some ideas?

MATT: Oh, okay. So, um, sorry, I thought that was,

DANIEL: that was not one of those rhetorical questions, Matt. That was a question. Question.

MATT: Yeah. No. Okay. So like the obvious one would be, you know, what I'm going to like, um, make [00:28:00] actually, like there's heaps, right?

MATT: So maybe I'll pay for a whole lot of ready-made, healthy pre-made meals to be delivered to my door, saves me time cooking, right where you're hiring, like the personal trainer, for example. Yeah. Yeah. So you can

DANIEL: increase your physical capital, your health. Yeah. By using your financial capital. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

DANIEL: Things like, you know, if I don't have time, I get a house cleaner or a gardener, uh, people who, you know, can do a better job than I can or have the time to do it, I'm gonna pay them for it. Yeah. Um, you know, someone once said to me that you can solve a lot of problems by throwing money at it. Mm-hmm. And I think that's true.

DANIEL: So I'm just saying that, um, if you have an area where you have lots, we have plenty.

MATT: Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: And you have an a domain or an area where you're in deficit, is there a way to, to somehow. Divest or trade. Yeah. In order to increase your ability. Yes. To reach into the other area.

MATT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's good.

MATT: And again, I really, really, really, really like that. Yeah. Because I, no, I do. I do. I do. And, and, and that to me seems to be like less of a kind of efficiency hack compared to the bundling because you're actually removing [00:29:00] something. Yeah, in order to get something, you're exchanging something, right? You're exchanging, yeah.

MATT: You're exchanging something like in order, like to bolster something else. Right. So, but I guess again, like, you know, worst case scenario, some people would probably feel that, um, that to some degree that's, and correct me if this is wrong, but this is almost like it's still the Titanic. And I've just shuffled some deck chairs around.

DANIEL: Yeah. I, I think that's, that could be true. Mm-hmm. But if you are someone who, you know, I think the financial capital is the classic. If you've worked your guts out mm-hmm. You've overinvested in career

MATT: mm-hmm.

DANIEL: And you know, your sole driver has been making money mm-hmm. And now you're suffering in terms of health or relationships, well then I think it makes a lot of sense.

DANIEL: It's not just a, a small hack stop. Spending your money. Yes. Yeah. To build friendships in the best way. Yeah. And start spending your money to increase your health in the best way. Yeah. You know, give yourself the best chance, mm-hmm. To boost those areas. Mm-hmm. [00:30:00] Because you've overinvested. Yeah. So I, I I think that can be helpful Yeah.

DANIEL: If you're in that situation. Yeah, that's

MATT: true. Like, like maybe, and maybe like, like to go to that example that that would be coupled with actually spending less time making money. Absolutely. Going ahead. So it's not just taking what I've already Yeah. Got and diverting it this way. Yeah. Is actually I'm gonna spend less time making money.

MATT: Full stop. Yeah. Well that might lead to our third. Habit. I

DANIEL: love a third one or third practice. Yeah. Which is plain and simple elimination. Yeah. Yeah. Good. And in that situation, so elimination is literally, I've just gotta say no. Yeah. And cut stuff. Mm-hmm. To make space. Mm-hmm. So I think the example you gave with career mm-hmm.

DANIEL: Is more an elimination. Yeah. I work 80 hours a week. Mm-hmm. That's mad. Mm. And it's impacting all these other areas of my life. Mm. I'm gonna actually work 40 hours a week, which means I'm gonna quit my job and get Yeah. A lower paid job. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm gonna make some significant sacrifices in terms of my career capital and progression in the company because I need the time back.[00:31:00] 

DANIEL: Yeah. That's elimination.

MATT: Yeah. To me, um, you know, it's, it's almost counterintuitive 'cause I think that's that to me, and I would assume a bunch of other people, that sounds like the scariest. But I think a lot of the time it's gonna be the most effective. And it may be for a lot of us, myself included, really like the most necessary.

DANIEL: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And if you're totally stretched for time. Mm-hmm. And you're running from here to there. You don't have a choice. Elimination has to happen. But the beautiful thing is, and this is where we go back to subtraction, neglect as a science, eliminating and subtracting from your life doesn't necessarily mean you'll stop moving forward.

DANIEL: Yeah. You just might move forward in a way that is surprising and different. Yes. Yeah. I've actually worked with quite a lot of executives or people who have gone up the corporate ladder and they just keep climbing.

MATT: Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: And they're miserable. Or business owners who've created a successful business.

MATT: Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: In the sense that they're making money and they're actually like, they achieved all the goals they set out to achieve. Yeah. And they hate the business that they run because it's just, it, it just, wow. It's like a chain around their neck. Yeah. They, it, it controls their life. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. [00:32:00] And so in those situations, well, yeah, elimination means I'm gonna make some tough Yeah.

DANIEL: Identity changes, some tough, practical changes, but the outcome is almost always positive because people are like, wow, I have freedom now. Yeah. You know? And actually, what I thought I wanted didn't give me the satisfaction I want. I actually love hanging out with my kids, or I love playing pickleball, or I love.

DANIEL: You know, working in a nonprofit and having fewer hours, but actually making a difference. Yeah. Aligned with my values. Yeah. So, you know, those elimination calls can really add to your life. Mm-hmm. They just are hard to do.

MATT: Like, what are some kind of easy wins, although, let's let, let's go the least hard wins.

MATT: Well, yeah. 'cause we've gone pretty extreme with like the career change, haven't Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I heard this great example the other day from a mate, um, and I thought, wow, this, this, this is like really pertinent. 'cause I think, I mean, he, he's at a particular stage in life. When this happened. Um, so I think this is like, probably like a kind of easier win when it comes to elimination, when you've been around the block a couple of times.

MATT: And that is, uh, he was talking about motorcycling, right? So he'd been into motorcycling for a little while, like he had the [00:33:00] bikes one morning. Uh, he found himself waking up pretty early, jumped on the bike to go to work. Booted, booted, and booted was like going along, like looked down, saw he was doing well over the speed limit and freaked right out.

MATT: And at that moment it popped into his head. Thought, do I actually like motorcycling or do I like the idea of being someone who likes motorcycling and motorcycles? And he thought, you know what? I don't even really love this so much as I just loved, I, I was actually like in love with the idea of being someone who really dug it.

MATT: Hmm. So that day put it away. Put it on Gumtree or Marketplace, whatever, sold it and has picked up, um, cycling instead and has bundled that without using this, this terminology, obviously with like doing that with a bunch of other people. Mm-hmm. And so it's, it's social and it's also like good for his physical capital in terms of his health, you know.

MATT: Um, so that was really interesting. I thought, I reckon I could think of like two or three areas if I really applied myself. And they, again, it's not an easy activity, but I reckon some low hanging fruit for people have been around the block. There's a bunch of stuff you, [00:34:00] like, you probably are invested in spending time and money on, but if you were really.

MATT: Brutally honest with yourself about it. You'd probably discern, actually, I, I'm not doing this for the love of it. 'cause I feel, you know, I wanted to be one of those people who liked the thing or who does the thing. But it's not really anything that brings me joy or meaning.

DANIEL: Or maybe even, you know, I used to like it.

DANIEL: I used to, but life has changed, you know, the whole midlife squeeze thing. Yeah. Yeah. And now I don't like it as much. And that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. So look, to answer your question, now that I've had time to think about it, I. I came up with this, this, this is profound. Everyone, this, this, this could be a life changing moment.

DANIEL: Lucky I'm already sitting down. I know, I know. But, um, I was thinking about this expression and, uh, it's, it's stealing Newton's third law like completely, but for every new action. You need an equal and opposite subtraction. Hmm. That's, that's my, you know, Daniel's third law of space making. Okay. For every new action you need an equal and opposite subtraction.

DANIEL: So I think if you take it at a very simple level, uh, every time I buy a new pair of shoes or a new kind of shirt mm-hmm. [00:35:00] That's a new action. I need an equal and opposite subtraction. I need to give one pair of shoes away. Yeah. I need to give one shirt away, otherwise my closet will be full. Okay? Mm-hmm. I think that's a great rule of thumb at work.

DANIEL: Every time I accept a new project, well then I need to think about what project, am I close? Am I gonna close or delegate? Or, or maybe, you know, significantly delay because you can't say yes to something without there being an. A no or a cost to you? Uh, every time I say yes to a new recurring meeting, I have to say, well, that's gonna be something that is now added to my schedule.

DANIEL: How do I remove an equal and opposite recurring meeting from my schedule? I did test this with my wife and she said, does it work for kids? I'm like, no, it doesn't. So it doesn't work in every area of life. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, I think it's a good rule of thumb. Mm-hmm. In terms of, uh, it, it might not be so much that you're trying to subtract intentionally Yeah.

DANIEL: But at least if you add to your life. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Don't just add Yeah. Think what can I subtract? Yeah. In an equal and opposite way, because otherwise I am accumulating.

MATT: Yeah. We've referenced cattle like Newport a lot and um, and one of, one of his ideas maybe just kinda made this popular, [00:36:00] but he talks a lot about the idea of like schedules and I think you could say in those five domains of life.

MATT: Really kind of like at the very, very most, but particularly with time, you wanna have it like 80% maxed, 80% maxed at the most, you know, because once things go past 80% in terms of systems and busyness, like a whole lot of disproportional, chaos seems to kind of ensue, you know? So I kinda like the idea of taking your law and coupling it with the, if I was in a position where I thought I was running at just below 80% and when it came to my time, I then like to apply your law.

MATT: 'cause that would mean that if I applied that diligently. I'd never go beyond that 80. You know what I mean? Okay, so you leave

DANIEL: a bit of margin. Yeah. You lose some fat. You're not saying a hundred percent or 110% is my margin. You're saying I want 80 or 90%? Yeah,

MATT: that's right.

DANIEL: 80 i, here we go with the A type in me.

DANIEL: Alright. 80%. Yeah. And then you apply that law. Yeah. Um, but anyway, that's elimination like it. And the reason that is important when you're stuck. You can't just keep adding. Mm. You need to find ways to simplify, to give you the space to get unstuck.[00:37:00] 

DANIEL: Okay, Matt. We're at the end of this episode, but it's the super important bit, which is the application.

MATT: Thanks, Matt. I won't leave.

DANIEL: I'm hoping more for those listeners who are driving. Okay. Uh, what do we want our listeners to do? Between now and next week. Yeah. Okay. 'cause it's the doing that actually changes your life.

MATT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, this is kind of, um, building on what we asked them to do last week. So again, hopefully everyone out there has done the exercise, the five capitals exercise

DANIEL: or at least identified an error in their life. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Just one.

MATT: Yeah. So one capital slash one one domain. So start with that.

MATT: We'd like you to take that area and just make one small change to that area and to undertake that one small change. We'd like you to do one and only one of the above three options. Yeah, so we'd like you to bundle something like we talked about. So again, take that area, that capital, that domain bundle something up.

MATT: Hmm. Or non and or [00:38:00] divest and trade. Hmm. So again, like you've already beautifully explained, taking from one where you've probably got plenty of. In a particular capital and using that to build up another capital over here. That capital you've identified, or again, not in addition to, but, or just eliminate something from that domain slash capital that you've identified.

MATT: Yeah. Great. Cut something

DANIEL: out. Great. And the heartbeat of this is that you end up next week saying, I picked something really small. Yeah, that's it. And really tangible. Mm-hmm. That could become habitual. Yeah. That makes a bit more space in my life. Yeah. Through subtraction or elimination. Yeah. Rather than just, yeah.

DANIEL: Doing more. It could be something fairly big, like I'm gonna have a regular coffee once a month with someone. Yeah. To kind of bundle, uh, it could be something small but emotionally difficult. Like, I'm actually gonna go through my cupboard and get rid of one shirt and one pair of shoes. Mm-hmm. You know?

DANIEL: But the point is to. Do something less, not more to set you up for the rest of the podcast. So let's keep it

MATT: realistic.

DANIEL: Let's keep it realistic. Yeah. So by the end of this pod [00:39:00] course, we would love people to have made one small, practical shift in one area of their life or one domain that helps 'em get a bit less stuck.

DANIEL: And so we're moving forward. Don't forget to download. The handout, which has all of our activities and the important stuff that guides your actions at Space Makers au slash S3. But next week, Matt, we're gonna talk about how to harness, that's the H, how to harness your strengths. Yes. We're gonna talk about.

DANIEL: The importance of strengths and how to get unstuck by focusing on what works rather than what doesn't. But until next time, make space. See ya.

NARRATOR: The space makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL: A warm thanks to our sponsor, banjos Bakery Cafes who are expanding across Australia and looking for new franchisees.

DANIEL: If you are hardworking and business savvy, visit franchise.banjos.com au and save 10% on franchise fees by mentioning spacemaker. [00:40:00] 

NARRATOR: If you feel busy, overloaded, and struggling to keep up, the Spacemaker Dojo is here to help. This online community is for busy professionals like you dedicated to making space together For less than $75 a month, you can access our best selling courses like Email Ninja and Priority Samurai.

NARRATOR: Join Live Zoom training sessions and share your learning with others. Dive into the Dojo to regain control of your time and make space in a supportive, accountable community visits. Space Makers au slash dojo to find out more. Until next time, make space.