DANIEL SIH: [0:00] Hey there, Spacemakers. I'm Daniel Sih, here with my good friend and co-host, Matt Bain. Welcome to the fourth season of The Spacemakers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life.

 

NARRATOR: This is The Spacemakers.

 

DANIEL SIH: This season, we go deeper, challenging our constant self-improvement culture and what it's doing to us. It's a podcast designed to help you step off the busy treadmill, let go of the constant need for more  [00:30]and make space for a life that is truly enough. Big thanks to our long-time sponsor, Bulk Nutrients, providing high-quality supplements at affordable prices. If you're a new customer, you can enjoy 5% off your first order at bulknutrients.com .au forward slash spacemakers.

 

NARRATOR: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

 

DANIEL SIH: Here's a question with an obvious answer. Would you rather earn $100,000 with a spouse who loves you, children who admire you, good health, a deeper sense of purpose and a clear conscience, or earn a million dollars a year with none of those things? I mean, the answer is so obvious to all of us that it doesn't need to be said. Only a full would choose money over happiness, security, inner health, deep relationships,  [01:25]and yet so many of us spend so much of our time chasing money, thinking that money and more money, and having more and being more and wanting more will actually make us happier, healthier and more fulfilled.

 

So this question came up from Morgan Housel's book, The Art of Spending Money, but we're talking about the psychology of money, we're talking about the money dilemma, how to truly have enough, and we're talking about how to actually practically lower our desires, reduce our wants and become content with what we already have so that we can quite literally say we have enough rather than always needing more in order to be happy. It's a really big topic. It's the second part of a two-part series. You can still gain a lot from this standalone episode if you want to find seven practical strategies to lower your desires, experience more of what you already have and find gratitude and enoughness with your current earning capacity.

 

But if you're interested in diving into the problem of money and the psychology of money, we'll then definitely listen to the previous episode. But I'm here with my good friend Matt Bain, who is definitely enough, the co-host of the show, The One and Only. Hi, Matt.

 

MATT BAIN: Hi, Dan. Doing well. Thanks. I've been doing well too. Yeah, it's been a big week. Went home after last week, sold all my barbecues, invested the money in paying off the debt for the house. That's good. And now on a eating schedule that sees me and the family having food every second day, which is good. So I really lowered my desires for food as well. Good.

 

DANIEL SIH: That way. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. I would highly recommend a one meal a day for your health and finances. But look, last week, we talked about barbecues. We talked about financial independence.  [03:07]And we talked about a whole lot around the psychology of money. Do you want to give us a quick summary for those who missed what we talked about?

 

MATT BAIN: Sure, I do. Okay. Last episode, we spent a lot of time drawing on Morgan Household's work, specifically his last book, The Art of Spending Money. And one of the big ideas that came out of that is that people, I think it'd be safe to say ourselves included, are almost always a risk of thinking that if we just acquire, if we have, if we can just gather in more and more money,  [03:37]then we will be more satisfied or content, you know, or happier. His big point is that no, actually, what you're using money as a means to chase are different ends.

 

And those ends are usually feelings. So usually we think we associate money with things like freedom, contentment, admiration. That's what we're actually chasing. But we often confuse that and think, well, if all I want is more money, when in fact, we actually want more of those feelings. So it's been a lot of time like processing that. And then in terms of I suppose approaches and strategies that come out of that, we spent some time discussing the fact that if we can turn down our desires, if we can kind of like, I suppose like minimize that gap between what we have at the present, and what we're kind of chasing in the future, what we need, what we need, then the happier will be. Because so often, again, because we associate acquiring more money with these great states is that we're so busy chasing more money to reach those great states, happiness, security, admiration, we neglect the opportunities and the means, the resources we already have in the present to reach and feel and experience those states again, happiness, contentment, security in real time.

 

DANIEL SIH: So it's like an opportunity cost. Absolutely. And this is part of our bigger podcast, which is called Enough. All This Self Help is Killing Me, where we are, you know, lifting the lid on the self help movement, including what we give as advice, and trying to challenge the idea that  [05:03]people feel like they need to do more to have more to own more to self optimize, whether it be in the realm of health and fitness or whether you know, being areas of other things, but the money is the big one, right?

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's right. So I guess specifically earn slash make money.

 

DANIEL SIH: I need to earn more. I need to have more in order to be XYZ in order to have enough to be enough. And what we would like to argue is that for many of us, not if not for everyone, because you do need a certain level of income, but for many of us, the gap between what we need and what we have now could actually be reduced by working on our mindset, not just our earning capacity. And we want to give seven really practical strategies in this episode for how to do that.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah. And for a cool segue, how about you regale us with one of your recent traveling tales?

 

DANIEL SIH: So we prepare these podcasts in advance and I was in kind of script writing mode, traveling interstate. And I was in a hotel and I don't know, I don't usually go get big meals when I'm by myself, but I just felt like it. So I went to an all you can eat kind of dinner buffet that was at the hotel. And, you know, I sat down and I didn't know what to expect. It wasn't cheap, but I went to the buffet and like the first thing I saw were a bunch of King prawns with shells on which, you know, I know only King prawns at Christmas on this is like Christmas.

 

MATT BAIN: Christmas has come early. So I had mussels, which I love. So I grabbed like a massive plate of like King prawns and mussels and, you know, maybe a tiny bit of salad.

 

There was a few potatoes on it. And anyway, I ate slowly. I'm like, I've got plenty of time munched my way through the prawns.

 

And then after I'd finished, I was like, well, that was nice. I reckon I could have more, but what do I choose next? Because there's so much.

 

There's so many options. And so I'm like, well, I like the prawns and the mussels. So I went back and had a few more of them.  [06:55]And then on a third plate now that I'm already full, I saw that there was pork crackling. And they were slicing pork on the bone. So I got some pork and then I got some like dumplings that had Chinese dumplings and you can't not eat them. Then I thought I should probably get some salad.

 

But next to the salad was some salt and pepper squid. So I had some of that. I'm eating a lot. So I ate all that.

 

And I kind of finished it and I was feeling pretty full. And then I thought, oh, it's dessert time.  [07:24]And there was like 25 desserts.

 

And I saw the Pavlova, which I clearly had to go for because I love Pav. But then they had like a mango panna cotta. They had all these different scrolls.

 

They had like fruit and then they had cheese platters. And I just couldn't fit it in. So I ate a little bit of Pavlova. I think I had a few pieces of fruit. But the funny thing is, as I was finishing my dessert, I remember feeling and thinking like unsatisfied. I was absolutely full. I'd stuffed myself.  [07:53]But I felt dissatisfied because I didn't get to try the cheese. I didn't get to try the panna cotta. And I actually probably could have had more pork crackling.

 

And I actually would have liked to have more prawns. And they're just sitting there. They're free.

 

I've paid for them, right? And I actually realized that I actually, I don't really like all you can eat because I often feel dissatisfied because I don't know if I made the right choice. And I don't know if I could have fit in more or maybe if I ate differently, I could have enjoyed it differently. Whereas if like, if someone had actually gone, if I'd gone to a restaurant and someone actually had set aside a massive plate of prawns and mussels, I would have been like, that is amazing. And it would have been enough. And then if someone came back and said, do you know what?

 

Here's an extra plate of pork crackling and salt and pepper squid. I wouldn't have been like, oh my gosh, that is unbelievable. And then if they said, and you get like Pavlova and some fruit, like that would be like unbelievable. But because I was presented with an  [08:49]endless array of possibility and a never ending spread and it was all mine for the taking, I didn't love it that much. And I, I feel like that is a good analogy for money.

 

DANIEL SIH: Because the more you have, the more you need. The more you have, the more you start to lift  [09:10]your eyes to other possibilities that you weren't even considering before. The more you start to hang out with people who are spending more, earning more, who have more, who are more successful than you. And therefore you feel dissatisfied because there's a whole other goalpost that you haven't yet reached. Like there is a, doesn't matter. And this is what Morgan Housel says. It doesn't matter whether you are earning hundreds of thousands or millions or hundreds of millions or billions. The richest people are often the most miserable because they are comparing up, not down, and they need a little bit more.

 

MATT BAIN: Okay. So a couple of quick takeaways in the summer, right? A life is not a buffet or at least a good life isn't a buffet. That's the first thing that I've taken away from that.

 

DANIEL SIH: Well, actually, what I'd say is we are presented with life as a buffet though, in a consumer culture with social media. Like it is literally like you are exposed to a million different options constantly, which makes you miserable. But life shouldn't be a buffet.

 

MATT BAIN: We should treat it like it's ala carte. And secondly, I'll just pick it up on a point you made. It's not so much, I think it's not so much is that the more money you have, the more you need, but the more money you have, the more you think you need.

 

DANIEL SIH: What's probably the more money you have, the more you want. Yes.

 

MATT BAIN: The more you want. The more you borrow. The more you borrow, the more you need. So there is actually a need component. Eventually, but it gets through the wants first. But it starts with the psychology, not the actual need itself.

 

We'll give examples about how we've seen this play out as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. So I suppose the take home for me is, yep, don't go to buffets and just appreciate what I have. You know, sit down and actually appreciate the meal. You know, honestly, if I sat down and I had three or four prawns, and I consciously sat and paid attention to what I was eating, if I knew that that's all I'd get for the meal. And I actually gave a conscious, had a conscious choice to be  [11:03]grateful and to appreciate the bites and to taste them and to eat slowly.

 

I probably would have appreciated the meal more than gorging myself with all this stuff. So it's about mindset. It is. It is. Because in theory, you could have brought that mindset to the buffer. I could have.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, but I didn't because there was more. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So we are talking about money mindset. We get really practical. So look, I once asked my kids, you know, I'm trying to do money education with my kids. I once asked them, what are three, what are the three key ingredients to building wealth?

 

We just, we talk about different topics around the table. And this is the one I asked. And it was interesting.

 

They nailed the first two that I was thinking of pretty quickly. The first one was, well, you need to earn money. You need to earn a reasonable amount of money so that obviously you can save. The second thing that they mentioned, you know, and I've been educating my kids about money for a while, but they said, well, you need to save like more than you, you need to spend less than you earn and invest what you've earned so that you can get capital gains and make money from your money.

 

You know, your children can have children as the King of Babylon book says. So, so they got those two, but I pushed them hard and they couldn't pick the third one. And the third one in my mind is you constrain your desires because you can earn lots of money, you can invest lots of money. But if your desires increase at a higher rate than your investments, you'll always be poor.

 

And I think this is a very misunderstood area of money management and absolutely critical. I understand if you want to experience a life where you are saying, I have enough rather than I constantly need more. And I think in practice, the easiest way to stabilize and reduce your needs is to stabilize your wants. So as you earn more, your goalposts don't move, but they stay fixed. In fact, you know, let's say you really, really desire a holiday overseas or you really, really desire that extra house that's going to cost 500,000 more, you can't possibly find a way of achieving that tomorrow.

 

But you can if you reduce your desires right now to be content with what you have. So you no longer needed that. Yeah. Cool. So let's go through seven practices.

 

Number one, we've kind of tackled a bit, you know, practice one, focus on what you have, not what you don't have. So again, I was writing this episode and it takes a bit of time to write an episode. And I went for a quick toilet break. And as I went to the toilet, as we're telling a very private story on air, I saw that I had six rolls of toilet paper in the bathroom. Essentially, we've stocked up again.

 

Okay. And I actually had this thought that went through my mind, wow, I've got six rolls of toilet paper. You know, remember in COVID and we were all like fighting to get toilet paper from the supermarkets and everyone was terrified that they wouldn't be able to wipe their bottom. But I realized I have eight rolls of toilet paper and that's incredible. Now what's interesting is that means I've got more than enough toilet paper. And in fact, I also have like other rolls of toilet paper upstairs and I've got a subscription to who gives a crap. So I've got toilet paper that comes when I need it. But I never sit there and think, wow, I'm so wealthy. I have more than enough toilet paper. I just assume it.

 

It just becomes my baseline. Whereas if I didn't have any, like in COVID and someone gave me eight rolls, I feel, I would feel like I was wealthy. Does that make sense?

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, it does. It's really good example of like context being so important. Yeah. And the role of context plays in time, like in terms of probably creating and maintaining out of desire.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, absolutely. And the sort of thing is about context and it's also about anchoring. What do you pay attention to? Because there is data all around us, you know, I could be paying attention to the fact that our producer Joel is clicking away at things. I could focus on the fact that we have ferns or that there's a clock ticking here or  [14:57]I could pay attention to the fact that I'm breathing air. Like what we pay attention to becomes our reality. Are we paying attention to what we have and a practicing appreciation for the eight rolls of toilet paper? Or are you practicing a lack of gratitude for the fact that you don't yet have a trip to Japan or you don't yet have that house or you don't yet have that new couch, which I talked about last week. Does that make sense? Like what are you paying attention to?

 

And where are you focusing your inputs? Because you can always focus on what you have  [15:27]if your mindset is shaped towards focusing and appreciating what you have. And you can always find things to be unhappy about because you don't yet have enough.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's good. And chances are there's something in your respective world that you are taking for granted that you're also under appreciating or you're not I suppose. You're not enjoying it or you're not utilizing it as much as you could. Yeah, absolutely. And that's probably because like again, like you're yearning for more toilet paper or just something to read in your bathroom or something like that.

 

DANIEL SIH: Exactly. I mean, it's not again, it's not about the toilet paper. It's just about the fact that all of us, no matter how worthy we are, we probably have things that we could appreciate that we no longer appreciate.

 

And what are we fixating our eyes on? So the key, one of the secrets to happiness when it comes to enoughness and money is to focus on what you have, not what you don't have. If as a practical activity,  [16:16]think about something that you really wanted a year ago, that something that you were chasing, something that you were saving for, something that you were hoping for, it might be a holiday, it might be a new pair of shoes that could be, I mean, it could be anything, an upgraded car, could be something small. I finally want that guitar or that new sofa.

 

Find something that you actually achieved that you got and pay attention to it because most likely you forgot about it and you're already focusing on the next thing and actually think, oh, wow, I got that. And I have this and I have this and I have this. Does that make sense? Like focus on what you do have, not what you don't have. And it will start to build appreciation into your mindset and therefore reduce your desire and reduce that gap between wants and needs. I'll try.

 

MATT BAIN: The new things are just so shiny and novel.

 

DANIEL SIH: All right, so Matt, practice too. Be careful who you spend time with. Tell us about that.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, this one's really interesting. I personally like it because I think it does name up the fact, as we've already discussed in many programs, so it's like that we're social creatures, right? We're social creatures. So it's so easy to fall under the delusion that I am kind of independently and autonomously creating my own values and my desires and they're being shaped in isolation.

 

But that's just not true, right? I'm so, so used to all of us. We largely as a generalization also impacted and influenced by our peer groups, by our status groups, the people that we kind of look to for establishing what is normative, what's to be expected, you know what I mean? I hang out with most people who have plenty of toilet paper. So I just kind of take it for granted now that toilet paper is nothing to get excited about. I just, I don't appreciate it for what it really is.

 

DANIEL SIH: But when actually when  [18:12]no one had it or everyone was fearful, there's more than everyone was

 

MATT BAIN: fearful of it, not having it all rushed out together, right? So we are absolutely shaped by our social environment. That's right. And there are plenty of places where I could go real world, real time now and it would be like gold. It'd be paper gold. Anyway, so Morgan Housel and his book has a great quote about this in relation to again desires being shaped by peers, particularly the risks associated with wealthy peers. If your status group is suddenly comparatively wealthy, he writes, who you socialize with can have as big an impact on your material happiness as how much money you make and how much you spend. When you think of that, that way, choose wisely who you spend your time with.

 

Yeah. So again, it's not just dollars. It's also with any social groups that you run with, you know, there's almost a cost that comes with keeping up with them as they're like engaging the same kind of activities, going to the same kind of events, you know, eating out the same kind of places, you know, engaging,  [19:10]engaging in the same kind of hobbies. Like, you know, God forbid that one of your kids best friends suddenly joins the pony club because then you are

 

DANIEL SIH: really going to be feeling then we're all broke. Yeah. Yeah. So to acknowledge that who you spend your time with, you know, it's like the five people you spend your most time with, we'll shift your anchor about what you need and what is normal and how much is enough. And therefore we need to be aware and careful about that. So that was our second point.  [19:38]Be careful who you spend time with. At least reflect on that. But number three, do you want to dive into practice, Sarif?

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, sure. So this one is, and this one's probably a bit more obvious, curate your media consumption. So this is like basically taken the principle that we just talked about, you know, who you actually rub shoulders with in the real world, whether that be through work or, you know, your neighbours  [19:59]and applying it to your online world. And this is, it's pretty obvious truth to say that social media and advertising really have one kind of like a main goal and that is to ramp up, inflame, elevate, max out, out as I as they want us to buy and consume more and more and more and more. So algorithms obviously like now customized to kind of like hack into my particular psychology. They're very, very familiar with my particular desire.

 

DANIEL SIH: You're just getting barbecue porn coming at you. That's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so gradually just through, you know, mere exposure, if nothing else in the amount of time that I, that I face, you know, that I spend in front of that screen, what is, I suppose, what is a, an aspiration or a desire slowly shifts and becomes more and more a felt need. And that is dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is just so, so, so, yeah. So it is constantly like shaping and moving the goalpost around what's reasonable and what's expected.

 

Yeah. And the goal really of social media, from what I see is to connect you with someone who looks and feels a bit like you. They're your age. They have a similar lifestyle. They're influencers in that space. They're admirable, but they're going to elevate your needs and wants so that you can buy more, have more, do more, need more and never be enough.

 

I mean, it is literally a desire making machine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So again, just like being careful about who you spend time with in person.

 

I actually think you need to be very careful with who you spend time with digitally because they are the people who influence you and shape your worldview and don't be foolish to think they don't.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, yeah. Like both the actual people, I suppose, or, yeah, or even like the avatars, but also like a, I find it's just, I just, I'm gonna agree like they're inventing desires.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. Inventing desires. Inventing desires you don't have. Yeah. Exactly. I never knew that I needed my phone to be waterproof, but now that there's a waterproof phone, well actually, of course, what if I drop it one day, like it just goes on and on. I never knew my eyebrows weren't perfect, but now I need, now no, I know what an eyebrow is that's meant to be perfect. And hey, see, they're beautiful, aren't they? You better have two not one, mate.

 

I shave. I learned that from an Instagram influencer as well. Anyway, we get this. It's not about morality. It's not about right or wrong. It's just about not making you miserable. The more you expose yourself to advertising and influences and social media, the more you will feel miserable.

 

The research is pretty clear. Honestly, my owl recommendation is if you can, unsubscribe. Like go, just don't be on, you know, Instagram. Don't be on TikTok. Just kill these things. Now I'm on them for work, but I'm pretty disciplined to turn them on, leave a post, turn it off again. I don't respond.

 

MATT BAIN: I don't do socials. I don't want to use algorithmic behaviours because it would just make me miserable. And so just be really, really careful how you shape your online world, where you can block ads, where you can block your phone so it's a dumb phone. I mean, just do digital hudging. All right. So principle number four, Matt.

 

DANIEL SIH: And we've called it Beware of Upgrade Itis. Alright, so what is Upgrade Itis? Well, it's the sneaky little disease that kind of gets us. Upgrade Itis isn't for the rampant consumer. It's not for those who are just going out and, you know, getting into debt, buying massive amounts of stuff like we talked about, you know, maybe with the social media consumption problem. But it's for people who think they're immune or semi-immune to consumerism. They don't buy heaps.

 

They don't spend lots. But whenever something breaks or when it gets old, they do upgrade it. So what they're saying is, you know, I need to replace it.

 

I may as well, just get something that's similar,  [23:36]maybe a base model kind of fridge or a base model phone, upgrading it so it's similar to what it was. But in reality, the base model has moved because everyone has gone higher. And therefore the upgrade is not a replacement. If you actually replace the TV, so you got the same size TV with similar specs, it wouldn't even exist or it would be the cheapest, cheapest Chinese version because five years later, everyone has a TV that's twice as big. It's a smart TV.

 

It has internet capability. Does that make sense? Yeah. And if you do that with your fridge, so that instead of buying a fridge, that's the same.

 

You now have ice cubes and smart controls. If you do that with your phone, so it's got the fourth camera, if you do it with the TV, so it's bigger and better. If you do it with the car, you know, that'll really curious. Now you've got the electric model with the, you know, the bum warmers. Like it doesn't take long until you realise you've got no money left. And all you've done is maintained what you already had.

 

MATT BAIN: Does that make sense? It does. It does. Like, yeah, it's just a sneaky way of shifting your expectations. And again, it's a really clever way of moving those goalposts. So what was again, like an aspiration or a desire to suddenly become, I cannot get by without this cool feature now.

 

DANIEL SIH: And look, we understand, and this is again, a mark of at least old fashioned consumerism. There's probably more modern versions, but I remember reading a book called Affluenza. Yeah. I remember they wrote that. That's gone back a while.

 

Yes, an excellent book. But they talk about how, the first time I was aware of this, that companies would deliberately create, let's say, a fridge, which is going to lose money in the sense of it's so expensive to build and the cost per fridge is not the equivalent of the price you pay, but it's so ridiculously expensive with so many features that most people will see it and they anchor that as the top fridge. And therefore they will buy the one below or the one below that thinking that they are buying the medium compromised fridge when really the companies are actually selling that as their top range fridge.

 

The other one's just a ridiculous anchor point. Yeah. And we do that all the time.

 

Yeah. Once you see that strategy, you see it everywhere. There's a phone which is so ridiculously high spec with like terabytes and kind of 500 cameras.  [25:53]Few people are going to buy that, but then everyone thinks that the one below is therefore a compromise

 

Speaker 4: and so you spend the money on it.

 

MATT BAIN: That's upgrade artists. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. That's a great illustration. Which is interesting. So all I'm saying is look, don't necessarily buy the shittiest thing, but just be aware. Are you replacing or are you actually upgrading requiring more debt, more costs, higher specs that you don't need. And I suppose we'd say this is all invisible lifestyle inflation. Yes. Which isn't so bad for the small stuff. It can definitely add up,

 

DANIEL SIH: but where it will kill you is our next principle. Do not impulse buy a house. Just in case you're on the cusp. Just in case you're on the cusp. Look, maybe it's the people I'm spending time with at the moment, but I've had numerous stories lately of people either impulse renovating or impulse buying a new house in the sense of there's not, there hasn't been a deep amount of thought. It has been a relatively fast, quick decision  [26:52]with millions and millions of dollars of debt attached to it.

 

Wow. Which lock people in to lifetimes worth of overwork and exhaustion and roles that they don't necessarily love or time away from their kids because of relatively impulse buy decisions that didn't seem to take into consideration the impact of the debt on their actual lifestyle. Does that make sense? Yeah.

 

So I mean,  [27:20]upgrade artists is a problem for a phone, but the one decision that will knock you out of the ball park is the house you choose and the suburb you choose to live in and the size of that house.

 

Speaker 4: Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it stands for privilege. And so that one decision can unlock enormous amounts of space in your life or take it away for decades. So it's worth thinking about, particularly when it comes to enoughness.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah. It's a tough year because it's just so easy to, again, being a justification making machine. It's easy like for me to think of a whole lot of good reasons as to why you'd be upgrading or changing houses.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. I'm gonna I was thinking about a conversation I was having recently with someone who's like, I really admire them. They're fantastic. They're amazing at what they do. They're really good people. But they were basically telling, because everyone I coach says they need more space. I'm working with busy, tired, exhausted  [28:14]professionals who earn a lot of money a lot of the time and they work too hard. And so they were saying, I'd love to drop some of my work or get rid of one of my jobs and not spend so much time traveling.

 

I'd love to spend more time with my kids and actually have a bit more space in my life just to be. The problem is I've just bought a new house and now I'm mortgaged up to the eyeballs. The irony is this person, their kids are leaving home. So I don't know why you're buying a more expensive house when your kids are leaving home.  [28:42]Like this is the time to downshift, not upscale your mortgage. And I just thought, wow, what? That one decision locks you into so many things for the next 15 years.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, but it's hard though, right? Because there's still something about, I suppose, social evolution in the sense that as I get older, things are meant to, like my lifestyle is meant to evolve accordingly. So no one's going to look at me being almost 50.

 

 [29:11]If I was living in a panel van watching VHS exclusively because I hadn't succumbed to upgrade, I just had gotten DVDs or some digital streaming service. People are going to think, that's an extreme example, I know.

 

DANIEL SIH: There's a big difference between a panel van and a functional house that isn't quite as big with the best kitchen.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, but I guess what I'm saying is that, and that is to be fair, like an extreme example. But at the same time, it's like, okay, your kids have left home. That's like a marker in terms of your development as an adult human, as it's a new stage of life. I think I'd like to mark that. And that was successful. If you get to the transition out of your care, that's a sign of success. You're upgrading your house is also like one for the science. Yeah, sure.

 

DANIEL SIH: No, I get that. Like, but that's what I'm saying. I think, and look, this isn't a moral judgment. I'm not coming here to say they're right, they're wrong, but there are massive consequences of those decisions.

 

That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. It's worth thinking about why you're pursuing a bigger house or that change or that upgrade. Could you achieve the happiness that you're looking for or the validation or that or whatever it is that you're trying to achieve out of it by lowering your desires instead  [30:19]and not mortgaging yourself to the hilt for the next 20 years. So another example, in the opposite end, I coached a client or I've got a colleague who lives in the Gold Coast. They had a relatively reasonable house, but close to the beach. When their children got older, they downshifted, they sold the house, they moved a kilometre, like to like a kilometre down the road. Their house is now  [30:47]10 minutes walk from the beach rather than two minute walk. And they now have enough money in the bank to travel constantly. They had a gap year overseas. He doesn't have to work anymore. He has a beautiful new house. It's just 30% smaller, five minutes further from the beach.

 

I think that's smart. So I suppose when it comes to this principle, the question I have, and this is probably more for people who have opportunities, of course, what is the cost of  [31:16]getting that new house or that new car or sending your kids to that extra good private school? They're probably the big three or maybe the extra holidays you take. You think of the big expenses, it's probably those things.

 

House, car, school, holidays. If you make thoughtful, considered decisions about them and lower your desires and stop trying to go up and chase the Joneses, you might find that you have a lot more space in your life, a lot more freedom and a lot more choice, which will actually give you the happiness you desire in a completely different way.

 

MATT BAIN: I think I see the theory and I appreciate the theory and makes so much sense that I wouldn't want to underplay the fact that these decisions and choices all come with a fair bit of psychological and emotional weight. That's because they're almost invariably, they have social consequences. If someone had a $15 million place and all their friends had, all they thought, all their friends are $15 million places, regardless of the debt, if they downshifted to say a $5 million place, I expect there'd be great social consequence to and that's the thing.

 

DANIEL SIH: You often risk status and you often risk even your social circles. It's not just about the house, it's about the community you connect with and the values that they have and where you fit and where you don't. I recognise these are weighty decisions. This is where money is not about money, it's about community, it's about values, it's about psychology.

 

MATT BAIN: I guess the council is not so much like where you land. But more be clear eyed and really sober about the stories that you're telling yourself and the choices that you're making, the reasons behind those choices and what you're expecting.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. And practice six is find your yes purchases. This is one of the best ideas, I think, from Morgan Housel's book, at least in terms of practical stuff. I found this really, really useful. So he argues that spending is an art and that everyone is wired differently. So what he means by that is the things that will give me pleasure when I purchase them are different than you. What I like to spend money on will be different to you. But then there's also a whole sphere of stuff that we purchase because we feel we should, because those around us  [33:34]do it and therefore we feel we must or should or have to buy what they buy.

 

What Housel suggests is it's worth testing and intentionally working out what brings you joy, what are your yes spends and to ruthlessly reduce spending on other stuff. Is that your read of what he said?

 

MATT BAIN: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's like finally some good news. Finally, Elias has to actually have a good time. Spend a little. How are you for that? Yeah. Quite a bit. It's about like turning up desire, not just turning it down.

 

DANIEL SIH: He quotes, you'll like this quote from Ramit Sethi and this is again from Housel's book. Spend extravagantly on the things you love. Amen to that, Matt, right? Spend extravagantly on the things you love as long as you mercilessly, did you hear that? Mercilessly cut the things you don't. So look, I like it. He says experiment.

 

Okay. So eat out at a cafe, breakfast, go on a day trip, get, try a new hobby. Start with a cheap hotel and then go to an expensive hotel. I don't know, hire an expensive car, maybe see what that feels like.

 

I don't know. Go to concerts, get massages, try different things and actually reflect what did I truly get joy out of, like in a longer term, bigger sense and what were like experiences for me. I found it like as an aunt, not a grasshopper, as someone who doesn't like spending money. I've found it really helpful to know like how to go bigger on some things that matter and how to cut on others. It feels balanced to me.

 

I'm coming from the other end. Yes, I have to spend, but most of the time I can save. So what is it for you? What are some things you like spending money on?

 

MATT BAIN: I like spending money on books. I like spending money on music. I don't want to spend money on live music and I like spending money on good food and drink. Pretty like cliche, I don't know, but you know, yeah, yeah, it's good.

 

And I like spending money on social occasions as in doing all that stuff. Apart from the reading, it's a bit weird, like just reading side by side. Even that's not so bad. Yeah, so most of those can be social.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. So I don't like spending money on expensive food and drink,  [35:50]but I do like spending money on good hotels because I like sleeping. I value sleep and I value exercise. So actually I really value stuff to do with exercise in terms of going to a gym that I really like. Yes, spending money on a good bed. We spent thousands on a really comfy bed because I'm like, well, I sleep on it every night, but I haven't replaced my couches or my carpet. So it's again, trying to work out what are the things that you've, you intrinsically value or you get joy from and do more of them. Obviously that has to be a relative alignment with your budget. You can't say the only thing I enjoy is holidays to Europe five months of the year, but it's a good principle.

 

MATT BAIN: It is. You got a king-size mattress? I have a king-size. There you go. You got super king?

 

DANIEL SIH: Not yet, but I probably will when I'm 60.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, I reckon you probably. I'll give you 50, mate. I've definitely got upgrade artists when it comes to my bed. Yeah, I'd say 50. What do you not like spending money on? That might be the hardest question. It's a short list. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a short list. Let me think. I'll have to get back to you on that one.

 

DANIEL SIH: I'm sure there's seven. I'm sure there's seven. Practice seven. All right, so we're going to talk about practice seven, Matt, which is our last one. We saved the boring, challenging one for last, but I actually think it's probably one of the most important. It's to give regularly and sacrificially.

 

MATT BAIN: It is seriously the most noble and admirable.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, I'd say more than that though. I'd say it's noble, admirable, but it's also the one that actually can release you from money, desire the most. Yeah, yeah.

 

MATT BAIN: To be fair, it's going to be hard to do this practice and  [37:33]buy a house impulsively at the same time and probably will be.

 

DANIEL SIH: Look, I read a book by French philosopher Jacques Elal. I don't know if I said that correct. Jacques Elal. I think it's Jacques. Jacques. Yeah, it probably are. Cold money and power. I know how to say those words. Money and power. Look, his big argument is that money isn't neutral, which is actually the argument that Haasel is saying without using those terms. He says that money isn't neutral. It has a gravitational pull  [37:59]and that the more money you have, the more you want and the less satisfied you feel. I suppose he aligns the philosophy with the spiritual teachings, whether it be from Buddhism to Judaism, Islam, like anything talks about the idea that money has a way of gripping your heart. And that it's not neutral, that it has a gravitational pull for you wanting more, needing more, having more.

 

Like that's not new. What I like about Elal's work is he gives a practical application. And his argument is that because money has a power and an allure and a gravitational pull in your heart, the way to break that power is he calls it to desacralize it. And by that, he means to give it away. Now, not to give it all away, but he says the power of giving away money that you want in a way that is generous and sacrificial,  [38:58]it somehow breaks that desire in you to always need more.

 

And I've absolutely seen that. People I know who have been the most generous in terms of giving on a regular consistent basis are the ones who tend to feel like they have enough money, even though they may financially have less than others. There's something about giving money regularly that breaks that, I don't know, that centripetal force of money that makes you always want more. And I think it's just, I think it's a spiritual thing. I think it's an emotional thing. It's a psychological thing.

 

But if you can't give or if you don't give regularly and you find yourself always chasing more and never having enough, I think the practice that you need to practice is to give. I know.

 

MATT BAIN: What do you think? Yeah, to me, it sounds a bit like fasting. Yeah. So the risk is, is that if this thing is constant in my life, as you know, I've got an appetite for it and it's constant and I can almost access it or I want to access it at any given time, you can see why it's easy for that to become, to breed or shift into dependency. Do you thinking that's like a false dependency, right? So thinking I need this or I need this to always be on tap. I need to be always available.

 

I need to be able to access more of it, like when I want to. So it goes from being against something that's almost like a take it or leave it, it's a luxury item, just something that becomes a need, a felt need or a dependency.  [40:23]And so one of the best ways, yeah, to counter that is just by abstinence, effectively.

 

DANIEL SIH: Abstinence, yeah. And you see this as any addiction. I mean, you've worked with addictions, like as a social worker, you've worked with people in rehab settings and it's a similar principle, isn't it? Whenever you have an attachment or an addiction that you are kind of, that you need to fulfill your identity and we need more. But the more you have, the less fulfilling it becomes and therefore you need more of it. Like that's the addictive pattern. It happens very easily with wealth.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah. And particularly, I think with wealth, and this is what, you know, maybe why it's a bit more insidious in terms of its, or risky shall we say, it's because as you and I talked about before, I'm plenty of other smarter people and I've also named up, if you're looking for a kind of generally accepted, trans-cultural, indicator of objective value, it often doesn't come better than money. As in money as a symbol of value and status, like it's everywhere. And so naturally, if I've got that kind of association with it, the more and more, like the more and more that I gather, perhaps the more status, the more security, the more valuable I feel, given that stuff away, anything that's tied up with status and value, that is tough, man.

 

DANIEL SIH: So I get this. So one of the practices, though, and it's been transformative in my life probably because I don't like spending money, and I certainly don't like giving away, is to give regularly. And so I like, I like the practice of percentage based giving, regular proportional intentional giving, meaning find a percentage, it could be 1% of your income, give it away.

 

Okay. And then as you get more wealth, and as your desire increases, the amount you're giving will naturally increase because you've tiered it to a percentage. That's the value, I think, of percentage based.

 

Sure. And if you can increase that percent to 2%, 5%, 10%, or whatever you feel is appropriate, well, that's even better. But I think that giving needs to be regular, intentional and consistent, if it's going to have that reverse engineering effect on your heart and your desires, and allow you to feel like you already have enough.

 

That's been my experience anyway. So we've talked about seven different practices. Do you want to read them out? And then we'll have a moment of silence for people to reflect on what one practice might connect with them. And is there anything from everything we've talked about that might have value? Yes.

 

MATT BAIN: Is that okay? Yeah. Yeah, let me read them out. From the top, number one, focus on what you have as opposed to what you don't have, or maybe would like to have. Number two, be careful who you spend your time with, because of social creatures and our desires are largely influenced by our peer slash status group. Number three, on the same kind of note, curate your media consumption, because it will just fill you with more and more limitless needs. Number four, beware of upgrade artists.

 

So look at replacing, if not going without, as opposed to improving and spending more and shifting your baseline. Number five, just again, you are a case of risk of this. Do not, I repeat, do not impulse buy a house. Number six, find your yes purchases. So again, this is the one about actually finding what gives you a certain amount of joy, fulfillment, direct your, your spending, I suppose, towards that, and then be really ruthless with yourself around what is left over and what doesn't.

 

And number seven,  [43:49]the most important and perhaps the hardest, give regularly and sacrificially, i.e. it's got to hurt. You should be suffering a little bit, right? If it doesn't hurt, it's not really sacrificial.

 

DANIEL SIH: So have a moment, have a reflect. This is about liberating us. So liberating us from our desires, our wants and our needs, so that we can truly say we have enough. Have a moment.

 

MATT BAIN: Hopefully that was useful. And now, of course, where do we start? Where do we suggest that people start at home?

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, because we really care about people making one tiny, small step. It's what you do that counts. We said this at the Spacemakers. Yeah, encourage listeners to take one of those seven principles and then do one small thing related to it.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, could I suggest to keep it super realistic, choose the one that you think is going to be either the easiest or the least hard?

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, I agree. That makes sense. So seven, yeah. The,  [45:09]probably some of the harder ones are things like reflecting on your friendship circles and maybe making those kind of tough choices. Changing suburbs. Changing suburbs. Like, they're really big calls.

 

Yeah, they are. But, you know, something like giving, I mean, you could start by saying, I'm going to give 10 bucks away a week, five bucks away a week on a regular consistent basis, even if it's not tipped as a percentage. That would be a good start if you don't give regularly.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, you could like do a quick order at home in your world over the course of even like, you know, half an hour and  [45:38]perhaps like notice something that you take if it granted that you haven't kind of optimized or maximized the amount of satisfaction or joy that it brings you.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, so to start looking around and practicing appreciation and gratitude.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. Look in terms of upgrades. Yes. You listened to the Karros episode a few episodes ago. There's probably a Karros moment in this for you, a moment of significance, an idea and a heart moment, an emotion.

 

You may have gotten angry or sad or frustrated with something we've said that might be your Karros. Let these things guide you. Make a small decision this week and then come back next week where we are wrapping up our series on enough.

 

All this self-help is killing us. We're going to summarize the series. We're going to tackle relationships and how to how to have meaningful deep relationships, but not get kind of hooked by trying to change other people or control other people. Yeah, it's going to be good.

 

It's going to be great. Yeah, but until next time, don't buy house and make space. Yeah, thanks. I'm going to go. I've got a 30 day cool off period. I've got to utilize on a pretty big purchase.

 

NARRATOR: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

 

DANIEL SIH: Big thanks to our longtime sponsor, Bulk Nutrients, providing high quality supplements at affordable prices. If you're a new customer, you can enjoy 5% off your first order at bulknutrients.com.au/spacemakers.

 

NARRATOR: If you feel busy, overloaded and struggling to keep up,  [47:04]the Spacemakers Dojo is here to help. This online community is for busy professionals like you, dedicated to making space together. Dive into the Dojo to regain control of your time and make space in a supportive, accountable community. Visit spacemakers.au/dojo to find out more.