DANIEL SIH: [00:00] Hey there, Spacemakers. I'm Daniel Sih. here with my good friend and co-host, Matt Bain. Welcome to the fourth season of The Spacemakers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life.

NARRATOR: This is The Spacemakers.

DANIEL SIH: This season, we go deeper, challenging our constant self-improvement culture and what it's doing to us. It's a podcast designed to help you step off the busy treadmill, let go of the constant need for more [00:30] and make space for a life that is truly enough. Big thanks to our sponsor Fuller's Bookshop, Australia's oldest independent bookshop and our absolute favourite place for coffee and Hobart.

NARRATOR: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL SIH: Let me tell you about the parable of the Mexican fisherman. It's an oldie but a goodie and it tells a lot about what it looks like to understand wealth, freedom and happiness. [00:58] So an American businessman visits Mexico and meets a local fisherman and he is surprised to find the fisherman only works a few hours a day.

What do you do with your time? The businessman asks the fisherman. To which the fisherman replies, well, I spend time with family and friends. I play cards.

I strum the guitar and have long naps in the sun. Well, perplexed and confused, the American businessman [01:25] launches into a plan for how he can improve the Mexican fisherman's life. He says, well, if you can survive on just a few hours a day and provide for your family, well, then what would happen if you worked, let's say, 60 hours a week? You could save up enough money to buy a fleet of boats and employ other fishermen and then within 10 years you'd be set up with enough wealth that you could retire completely. But then the fisherman says, as you can imagine, well, [01:53] what would I do with my retirement? Well, then the businessman says, you can spend time with family and friends, play cards, strum the guitar and even have long naps in the sun.

Now, look as ridiculous as that parable is. I think it speaks volumes into our culture around the psychology of money, around wealth, around the messages that shape us day by day and how we approach money as a society. [02:22] I first read this parable in Oliver Burkeman's 4000 Weeks and more recently in Morgan Housel's The Art of Spending Money.

I love it because it kind of, it has a curious take and an interesting take on the western mindset around money, around the psychology of money and how much is truly enough. So in this episode, we're going to talk about the money dilemma, how to truly have enough. We're going to tackle the psychology of money. We're going to look at the differences between rich and wealth or how to be rich versus wealthy and vice versa. And [02:52] we're going to talk about practical ways to use and value money without being owned by money.

This is the first in a two-part money episode, I suppose you'd say, which is all linked with our podcast theme. Enough. All this self-help is killing me where we're talking about the drive to do more and want more and have more and self-optimize and how so many of us are so exhausted by the need to perform and to be and to do [03:22] more and more and more.

And I think this is particularly relevant when it comes to wealth, savings, retirement, superannuation and generally the idea of how much is enough when it comes to your wealth. So I'm here with Matt Bain.

MATT BAIN: Hey Dan, Great to be here.

DANIEL SIH: Glad you got off your yacht to come and be part of this episode.

MATT BAIN: It was hard. Why did he have to be Mexican?

DANIEL SIH: Yes, I don't know, but it's a good parable, isn't it? It resonates. All right, so we're talking about a hot topic, one that, [03:51] well, did very well a few seasons ago when we talked about the ant and the grasshopper, how I'm a bit more like an ant, saving for a rainy day and you like the grasshopper.

MATT BAIN: That's rightYeah, the violin playing grasshopper. The violin playing grasshopper. Snappily dressed grasshopper for memory.

DANIEL SIH: Someone actually created a meme with me on an ant's head. You on a grasshopper's, but look, you and I have different approaches and different mindsets around money. And yet we both find money difficult. That'd be fair [04:19] to say.

MATT BAIN: I think that'd be fair to say. Yeah, that's a great way to sum it up. Very, very different approaches, but have as difficulty in common. Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: So Matt, you like spending money. Is that something you've said to me in the past?

MATT BAIN: Yeah, I do. I do like spending money. I am someone who likes both, you know, I'm drawn towards shiny flashy possessions and I also like newer novel experiences. I'm naturally pretty curious, I guess, and I, you know, I like the stimulation of new and novel things and often those newer novel [04:49] things cost money. So I've worked out recently, it became clear to me I'm a justification making machine. When it comes to rationalising and coming up with great excuses, basically, noble sounding reasons to spend a truckload of money on new shiny things. And the recent example was a barbecue, or as the Americans would call it, like a grill.

A grill, right? And so it's important for myself and my family to be hospitable. Okay, so we try to be relatively hospitable and I like to cook. [05:19] So it's like, okay, well, there you go, straight out the gate. It makes sense, you know, to buy something, some kind of machine that actually aids and assists you in being more hospitable for people, right?

So, okay, tick that box, here's a machine. Secondly, this particular machine, this particular barbecue and grill, you know, it was top quality. So, you know, it was made in America and I think, well, you know, why [05:42] spend less money on something that's cheap if it's just going to, you know, a road, a road full of part in a couple of years. It's more financially responsible to buy something that's actually made in America, Kansas specifically, 110% genuine American steel, right? So that's like, so do that because it's physically responsible. And thirdly...

DANIEL SIH: Made from genuinely Australian iron ore.

MATT BAIN: This bad boy could also do automatic cooking, right? So again, it's the kind of grill slash barbecue we can load up with pellets [06:10] and smoke meat over a long period of time, everything's automated, just set and forget. So it's like, speaking to my wife about it, saying, man, this is so good.

So we could turn this thing on and that way I wouldn't have to be kind of like monitoring all the time, which would allow me free up time to actually just shower attention [06:27] and love on our guests.

DANIEL SIH: Do you even have to buy the meat or does that create the meat as well?

MATT BAIN: Catch the meat, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

DANIEL SIH: Catches the meat, kills the skins, yeah, yeah, all our foyer. That's amazing. What a barbecue.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, so I could just be sitting there and people would be basking in my attention, which they love, right? So it's just like...

DANIEL SIH: And that's a good cause.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a hospitable... Hospitable, crying for longevity.

DANIEL SIH: Kind, present person. Exactly, yeah, yeah. I actually think you need that barbecue.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, well, that's exactly what I said. So believe it or not, I had this whole conversation going both in my head and then I actually voiced it with my wife. She's more [06:56] sensible in this regard than me, but it like dawned on me.

Well, I think she probably reflected it back to me. Matt, like you were suggesting, we actually drop 6K, 6K on a barbecue. And when she set it out loud like that and I realized that was like at least twice as much as my first car that was made out of German steel for what it's worth. I thought, no way.

That is just absolutely ludicrous and crazy. But I got myself in a position Dan where like on one level, it was a reasonable [07:22] idea and that was a point to drop 6K. And then and only then would I be happy with enough. So a 6K barbecue in my head had become enough. I needed that much money, enough money to be able to drop 6K on a barbecue and I could justify it.

DANIEL SIH: And we're going to talk about the psychology of money and how actually money is often little to do with the actual amount you have. And the value you place on it. There'll be other people who say, 6K for a barbecue. That's so cheap. You know, like that.

[07:51] What about the 25K barbecue? And then obviously there's a whole lot that say, yeah, that's ridiculous. We're going to talk about that. But I like the idea that you can justify anything. Yeah.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Easily. Easily. Yeah. Just the record we didn't buy it. Like just just just for the record, you haven't invited me over for the barbecue. For the record, if you order it, if anyone from Yoda barbecue is watching this right now, happy to be sponsored by you anytime. Yoda. Why, oh dear. Thanks for listening.

DANIEL SIH: Oh, [08:18] so look, I'm so the opposite of you. I'm never going to buy a $6,000 barbecue and I'm probably never going to imagine or dream that I have a $6,000 barbecue.

I think this is why you and I are so different. I was thinking about the other day, you know, because I've recently been reading a lot of books on the psychology of money for this episode. And it is such, it's such an internal thing based on the money stories and the money beliefs you have, the way you approach money is shaped by your history, your beliefs, your culture. And in a massive way, [08:46] and it impacts the way you see decisions. So, you know, I was thinking about why I don't like spending money like I don't, it's not like I just don't enjoy spending big amounts of money.

I do. And there's some things I really value. So I'm getting much, much better at spending on things that I think are intrinsically aligned with my values. But yeah, I don't like buying new things.

I don't like spending big expenses. I was thinking about it from a history perspective. Look, this is a bit personal, but, you know, I grew up in a family where [09:15] my dad provided what we needed and he was great. He was amazing at providing, but he also used money to control. You know, he did, he did use money as a means of kind of controlling people and controlling those around him. And he was a gambler. You know, he regularly spent large amounts of money and it caused a lot of stress on our family. A lot of fighting and eventually mom and dad got divorced, not just because of the money, but it was one of the things that I wanted to do.

And I think that's one of those factors. So when I think about, I think about, you know, the, the, [09:44] the stories of money I grew up around, you know, we, we had enough, but we didn't. And I saw, you know, dad going to the tracks and spending like hundreds of dollars on bets. And then I saw mom struggling because we didn't have enough in the budget to pay for the shoes or the food this week.

Not we, we didn't go without, but you know what I mean? [10:11] And that just left a bad taste in my mouth. So I think that's really shaped my ability to enjoy money and to spend it and to see the joy in it.

MATT BAIN: Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Sounds like you got lots of understandable associations with pain and conflict.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, pain and conflict. But, you know, over years I've changed my mind on lots of things. I'm certainly enjoying money more, but I think, you know, my point is that it's not my, my enjoyment of money is not necessarily about how much I have. [10:40] Or how much I don't have. It's about my beliefs, mindset and psychology around what money is, what it isn't and how to use it. And I think that's the same with all of us, whether it be justifying a $6,000 barbecue or never.

MATT BAIN: Or never, or never entertaining it because I don't want to spend money. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so that's what we want to, we want to talk about the paradox of money and the paradox of enough, particularly the concept that actually money [11:09] and how much I'm going to spend. How much is enough is often or almost always linked to our beliefs and not as much to do with actually how much we have after a certain point at least. Yeah, got to. [11:31] So Matt, we're going to talk about two different things over two episodes. This episode is going to be about money mindset and how to shift our psychology around money, which is super important. The next kind of part B episode will be about how to practically shift your money practices. So we're going to do both over two parts. But before we kick off the psychology of money, let's talk about some quick framing, which is important. So firstly, while we're going to critique the psychology of money and enoughness, [11:59] we do want to say money is important. It's pretty obvious, right?

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's right. We aren't like naive, idealistic, simpletons over here. Yeah. Hopefully.

NARRATOR: I can only speak for myself.

DANIEL SIH: Hopefully not. Money matters. I mean, bottom line is you need money to save, to spend, you know, the older I get, I must admit, the less idealistic I become around money.

And the more I realize how important it is to care for people, to have the freedom to actually explore things you want to do for work, to give you opportunities. [12:29] There's a whole lot of things that we need money for. I think that goes without saying we're not saying it's not important. Secondly, money is hard to manage. Now we're going to talk a lot about the value of shifting your mindset and maybe downshifting your expectations or at least closing the gap between what you want and what you have and how important that is. But we do want to acknowledge that for many people listening, you're just struggling with debt and you're struggling with deep financial challenges. [12:57] Inflation has gone up. Cost of living has exploded, at least in Australia, but I know around the world.

For many, many people, to some extent ourselves, it's just tough to get by. Yeah. Yeah, that's important.

Yeah. And certainly, it's easy to say a bit more will make me happy, but there is a certain level of wealth where you actually do need a bit more in order to have enough food.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, food on the table and roof over. Yeah, yeah. So we're very lucky that we are beyond that ourselves, [13:26] as are many of our listeners. But I think the psychology of money still matches up no matter where you are on the money scale because actually a lot of the time it's your mindset, not your physical wealth or earning capacity that limits your ability to get ahead. And the third caveat is, you know, clearly this is not financial advice. We are not financial advisors. Do not use the Space Magus podcast to make long term financial investment decisions or to give all your super up. [13:54] The only thing we would recommend is if you're giving money away, Matt needs a barbecue.

$6,000 would be about perfect. Go for me. Yeah, yeah.

I'm a big fan of Space Magus. Matt, let's talk about the psychology and how money is psychological before it's mathematical. Yeah, it's a great term.

Isn't it? Psychological before it's mathematical. So [14:20] most of the books that you and I read and probably most people have read kind of look at if you like the mechanics of investing. So again, here's a plan. Here's a strategy. It's, you know, it is, it can almost come across as like a hard science, right? If you do X, it will lead to Y. And there are definitely principles.

DANIEL SIH: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No one's like you save more than you like, save more than you spend, put away money for compound interest, have the long game and money slowly. Like there's some really good principles that make sense. [14:48] Yeah, that's right. But a lot of the books are about how to invest, how to save, how to shift.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's right. Your situation. You probably not tuning into our podcast to hear that kind of stuff. No, probably not. So, but one of the things that we like about Morgan House or two books, his previous work, the psychology of money and his new book, the out of spending money is that they're both different, right? He starts from a very different perspective, which is looking at the mindset, the kind of thinking again, the psychology, if you like, that lies [15:16] behind the stories that we tell ourselves about money. And as a result, how we go about using it and what we expect from it, probably most importantly.

DANIEL SIH: And it links, I think, really well with this theme of enough, right? That we're in a culture where people feel like they need more. If only I had a bit more money, if I had a bit more opportunity, if I earned a bit more, if I saved a bit more, if I invested a bit more then, I would have enough.

I'd be happy, I'd be free, I could have opportunities. We put so much [15:46] of our self-well-being. We put so much of our well-being into a future finance desk. It's almost so normative that we don't question whether that's a helpful thing or not. But it absolutely contributes to this self-help exhaustion that we are tackling in this podcast season, which is about how much is enough and how can you have enough, be enough and be content with what you already have. That's good. That's psychology, isn't it?

MATT BAIN: Yeah, exactly. [16:15] And one of his big and probably most important points going back to enough is that we, including myself in this, we often kind of make the mistake of viewing money as an ends.

So it's an ends. And so we think, well, money, if I just have more money, then again, then I'll be content, happy, whatever. So I need to get more money, more money, more money.

I need to have enough money. He says, no, no, no, money is not so much an ends. It is actually a means that we think will reach a different kind of ends. [16:42] And so he says, like most of the time, we actually use money. We want more money.

Not for money's sake, like to have just more, you know, like not to go full Scrooge McDuck and be able to like go diving in or lighting out the guys with it. It's more a case of money is a means by which we try to acquire usually a bunch of feelings, if you like, or emotional states. And they are classics such as freedom. So a sense of freedom. If I have more money, I'll be free. If I have enough money, finally, I'll get some respect. [17:11] If I just have a little bit more money, I will feel almost existentially secure. I can finally like lay head on pillow and I go, OK, I've made it. I'm now secure. Everything's locked down.

DANIEL SIH: So what you're saying is people actually don't want more money. They want the freedom or the happiness or the sense of security or the sense of like, I don't know, validation, [17:31] admiration, admiration, respect, credit.

They believe money will give them in a future state. Yeah, that's right. That's one of the things that came out of that book, which I found interesting is like, let's say you imagine, OK, if only I earn an extra hundred thousand a year, or if only I've paid off my house or if only, you know, I've got enough money for super then. Right. But what the then is, is that you're imagining a future state where you're content with what you have. You're imagining that if I have this, [18:00] well, then I'll be a person who is content in the present knowing that I have enough. I've got freedom. I've got happiness.

I've got respect. But in all like honesty, if you're the type of person is always looking for the future that if I have more money, then I'll have this. Well, then when you reach that point, you're probably not going to be content because you've got the habits and mindset of someone who is only happy in the future when they have something in the future.

MATT BAIN: Just a bit more. So this is where it's like chasing a, [18:26] I don't know, chasing something you would ever catch. Yeah. So like the ever shifting goalpost.

DANIEL SIH: And the interesting thing is if you're old enough, let's say, you know, our age. Well, I was thinking in my twenties, if only I had enough money to buy a house, if only, and then when I'm in my twenties thirties, I'm saying if only I had enough money to park my mortgage.

Now I'm like, if only I have enough money to have investment property. Does that make sense? Like the point is I've already, I've already reached my past future state and I'm still not happy because I'm chasing the future.

MATT BAIN: That's the [18:56] psychology issue. Yeah, definitely. And finally, as is like, I mean, maybe surprise, surprise, like just picking up on those examples. It's almost as if there's something wrong or incorrect about the equation. More money, money will give me X, Y and Z. X, Y and Z. And it's the X, Y and Z we really want. Exactly. And maybe money isn't the best way to attain X, Y and Z.

DANIEL SIH: Or maybe it doesn't have a, it maybe it can enable and empower some of that. But it doesn't [19:23] have the power you think it has. It can get you somewhere there.

MATT BAIN: Somewhere. It's somewhere there, but it's probably not going to get you all the way there.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, which links to the Mexican fisherman idea. Now, of course, this, you know, you and I have talked about the problem with that parable that I wonder if the Mexican fisherman could pay for his kids college and other things.

But at the same time, the parable stands true in the sense of actually some of the things we really, really want, like being able to read a book or sit, lie in the sun for half an hour or play music or spend time with their family and friends. [19:52] These things are almost always available right here and now. If we take our mind off of I need this in the future, if I have more money and actually start to ask the question, how can I experience this in here and now with what I already have? Yeah, essentially, what if I already had enough?

Yeah. What if I never earn more? How could I actually experience happiness in the [20:11] present? Yeah, that's cool. What's available to me now? What's available to me now? And that's a much better question, at least to ask as you're trying to earn something for the future. Yeah.

MATT BAIN: And again, if you're kind of sceptical about taking it from a couple of guys like us, that's understandable, but take it from John Rockerfielder, who at the time was the richest man in the world. So when asked how much money is enough, he allegedly replied, many people wish me with his quote, how much is enough? And he said, [20:36] just a little bit more. Just a little bit more.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you feel like that? If only you could buy that barbecue.

MATT BAIN: I think people would really start to respect me if I had a 6k barbecue. You know what I mean? People would take me seriously.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, definitely. I must admit that. If you invited me for a barbecue, I wouldn't come unless I got that 6k barbecue.

MATT BAIN: Well, it's a sad thing. So, and I think we've maybe mentioned this before as in the past season, but in the, you know, you know, in, yeah, well, season two. How so on his first book said, because he used to work as a valet [21:05] at a really exclusive LA hotel. And so he was always parking millionaires cars and he started off thinking, man, if people saw me in one of these cars, they'd think, wow, what a guy. I look so good in this car.

People would see me in the go and they think that guy, Morgan House, it looks great. He must be a person of status because he's driving that car. But he said, of course, that's not the real psychology. The real psychology is when people see Morgan House will drive in that car. They think, wow, I Matt Baing would look awesome. What if I [21:31] was in that car?

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. That was an amazing insight. I found that so helpful. Even when I think, you know, okay, I'm worried about how people will perceive me when I'm on stage or when I'm doing this or when I'm that. Well, things that I feel miserable about because I think I've stuffed something up and I feel terrible about it. I'm like, no one cares about me the way I care about me. No one's sitting there thinking about me. They're thinking about themselves. Just like they're thinking about themselves in the Ferrari, not [21:58] the person in the Ferrari. And actually, once you get your head around that, it's quite helpful.

NARRATOR: It's liberating.

NARRATOR: It's liberating. It just kind of gives you a reality check. Actually, you are essentially narcissistic and think about yourself more than anyone else will.

NARRATOR: No, I was going to think. So don't worry about it so much. All right. So our first point is if you link happiness to money, you'll never be satisfied. Yeah.

MATT BAIN: Let's dive into our second point. The second point is, and this is going to be worth talking about. So household posits that happiness is the gap between what you have and what you want. [22:27] So happiness is the gap over here, what I currently have, present state, and what I think I want over here.

DANIEL SIH: This is a game-changing insight. If you really grasp this, it really does lift the lid on the things that you are chasing. Yes.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm looking forward to talking about it. He says, and I'm going to quote here directly. How's all wrote the most powerful. The most powerful definition of wealth is not what you have. What actually matters is the gap between what you have and what you want. [22:56] Desiring less can have the same impact on your wellbeing as gaining more money. But it's not only more on your control, it's a game you can actually win, leading to durable contentment instead of fleeting happiness.

That's a great last line. It's a game you can actually win, leading to durable contentment instead of fleeting happiness. So just lower your expectations for life. Stop having so much ambition.

DANIEL SIH: Yes, but essentially it's [23:26] saying, instead of anchoring your hopes and dreams on a 6k barbecue, you have two choices, right? You can either buy the barbecue, get into debt and have to pay it off, or have to earn more money so you can reach up for the 6k barbecue. Or you can anchor your psychology and your desires lower and actually look at the one grand barbecue and think, wow, this is so expensive. It has so many more features than my $200 barbecue. [23:53] It's like going to do everything I need and it's brand new. Well, I don't even have to buy a second hand one. I get a brand new $1,000 barbecue. And the reality is it's the psychology shift that will make you happy, not the barbecue. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And this is the one thing that we're going back to the barbecue, but it's like it works for everything, right? Do you need more money? Do you need to save more money? Do you need to earn more money? Now, for some of us, yes we do, but a lot of the time, [24:21] the alternative approach, which we hardly ever talk about, is let's lower our desire and reduce our wants so that it matches our income. I know.

And if it does, what Howell's saying, and it's backed by strong research, is that your happiness is about the gap between what you have and what you want. I know. So you either have to have more, which is what almost all of us go for, or you deliberately somehow lower [24:46] your psychology and desires so you match your wants with me.

MATT BAIN: Here's the problem, man. It's so simple, Matt.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, I know. It's so simple. It's so easy to just lower your desires and change your psychology. But once my eyes were opened, once I ate the apple of barbecue, you were blind to the 6K barbecue on NaconSea.

MATT BAIN: I can't unsee the 6K barbecue. And I know there are guys out there who got 6K barbecues. And unfortunately, it makes my trusty Weber family cute, which is fantastic. [25:16] It just, you know, it makes it look wanting. And so like there's that, there's like once you know it's out there, if you're in a viral year, continuously bombarded. So you can't watch TV.

You can't open up like your web browser now without getting told bombarded with all the things that you don't have, that you could have, that would make your life better.

DANIEL SIH: And we have been saying 6K, I said, I've got a 10 grand barbecue. Did you know that? No, [25:42] look, it's so true. I mean, it's easy to say just lower your desires. And then you put us as individuals into a desire making machine, which is called Western consumerism. And, you know, which is called social media, which is called any environmental, anything in our environment basically causes us to want more, to need more, to desire more. And it's a lot harder than just change your mindset.

MATT BAIN: You know how the other Mexican fisherman got away with it? It's because like he lives somewhere where there's net freaking Wi-Fi. [26:10] That's the only way he could pull off that answer and be happy with what he had is because they had really, really poor if no, no internet connection like whatsoever.

DANIEL SIH: Look, where the truth and we're going to talk about this more. So we won't dive into it too much, but we're going to give some solutions for how you might lower your desire. No, no, but seriously, and some of them are considered the people you spend time with. Very carefully because actually the people you spend time with will deeply shape your desires and therefore your money mindset and therefore how much you have to earn. [26:38] We'll talk about some very practical things. That's only one small tip, but we're going to talk about these in the next episode.

MATT BAIN: Let me get, sorry, I will circle like now and get back on topic. So, don't spoil the next episode, but in all seriousness, like one, I think one way that I actually do find some comfort in terms of trying to, I guess, like tame or more to the point, see that desire for what it is and see the cost that's associated. We're trying to meet that desire via having to earn and then spend more money.

[27:06] Two things, two things I think that are really good. And again, this largely came from Household's work. First of all, it's getting really clear on what you are chasing again via that money and then seeing if there are actually better, more optimal ways of meeting it. So again, if you're looking for, you know, status, if you're looking for credibility, if you're looking for trying to become more competent, say with cooking and chefing or whatever, or just like working a barbecue, again, you can do that on a $200 [27:32] or $1,000 barbecue just as well as you can on a 6A barbecue. That's the first thing. So, and again, there are a whole lot of probably better ways to get, you know, real credibility and status rather than the size of your barbecue.

So there's that, there's getting like being really rigorously honest with yourself about what is the end goal that I'm trying to attain? What's the story? Like, where's the story going via the money? [27:53] We've talked about what's the

DANIEL SIH: goal of the goal that

MATT BAIN: was the last episode of the last season. And it's essentially asking the question, what is the goal behind the barbecue? You're saying, well, actually I would like to be a person who is hospitable and connects with friends on a regular basis. Then you might ask the question, what is there a simpler,

NARRATOR: easier, less expensive way to achieve the same goal? Which doesn't have the opportunity costs of me having to work so much that I don't have time to spend time with friends because I'm doing overtime to pay for my barbecue so I can be hospitable. [28:19] We do this all the time though, right?

MATT BAIN: So that's what you're saying. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, and then like, link to that is also of course like the opportunity cost. So again, if you're saving up for like the big purchase, like say, you know, it's the overseas trip. So that is going to cost you both so much money these days and so much time to work.

And you're going to tell yourself, listen, I just want to be able to take the kids or the family away to somewhere exotic. You know, this is like the one big trip of the lifetime. [28:46] And once we're there, you imagine this fantastic quality time going to be uninterrupted, we'll be able to relax.

I'll finally be able to spend some time, you know, some quality time with my family and loved ones. Yeah. And then of course, you don't take into account the opportunity cost that will be exacted from you, perhaps having to work long, arduous hours, perhaps having to work overtime, perhaps having to invest all this time and planning and the headspace and just planning this massive holiday. [29:10] That is very real time and attention that has been taken away from you in the present and short term future from those loved ones who you tell yourself you're creating this awesome long term future expensive experience for.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. Make sense. And it looks it's tricky, isn't it, to make decisions. I mean, I remember we had one holiday this Solomon Islands. It was like a game changing, memorable experience. I know that we'll talk about it for the rest of our lives. It was awesome.

It was fantastic. We were all healthy [29:40] kids. It just happened to be at the right age. It was at a time in life where we'd actually had a really hard time. We needed that kind of decompress. So that was great. It cost us heaps though. Yeah.

Last year we went to Malaysia. This is such a good story. It's an illuminating story.

Well, yeah. I mean, my daughter decided she didn't want to come because she's older now and she was studying. So it was me and my two sons. We all got sick and we basically rotated sickness the whole time I hurt my neck. I mean, it wasn't just that we injured ourselves, but actually there was just there just was no magic. You can't reproduce magic.

Sometimes it doesn't happen. [30:09] I walked away thinking, you know, not I didn't regret it, but I think actually for, I think we spent 12 or 14 grand on the holiday. How many, how many times could I take the kids to the movies and go bowling and, you know, get them special treats and do experiences that are just local? Like that would be for the next three, four years, pretty much for the rest of the time. I could spend that money and do local small things [30:35] and actually be present with them. And I know that they would really value that. So we're probably not going to do an overseas trip for a while.

Not that just because it was a bad experience, but we were like, actually the kids love playing board games and going bowling and going on small adventures and just spending time with us. And let's do that. So it doesn't have to be either or, but it's just asking the question. It's about being intentional. And just because all your friends are going overseas every year doesn't mean you have to. Yeah.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. That's good. That is a great example. Third point, Dan. [31:03] And I know this one is near and dear to your heart. The question of, could you just increase your income or should you consider and said lower your expenses? Want to hear it from a guy's got a $10,000 barbecue. Let's go.

DANIEL SIH: Look, I actually remember, I mean, I was a church minister for years and our income was really low, you know, and it was fine. We were fine, but it wasn't amazing for saving. Was this after the trip to Disneyland? Yeah, this is a lot before we did any of those trips, trust me.

Definitely no overseas trips on that income. But [31:32] yeah, we went to a financial advisor and it was interesting. I remember them saying, oh, well, look, everything you're doing is right. You're budgeting, you're spending carefully. He basically said the only thing you have to do is turn on the tap, which is essentially you need to earn more money.

So that was one perspective, which I found really interesting. You know, sometimes you actually do need to turn on the tap. But now that the taps are a little bit turned on, it's been interesting to think about how I'm going to do that. I suddenly [32:00] start thinking about things that I didn't need before and now I think I need them. And now I think actually, you know, once you get to a certain level of income, I think the trick is to actively lower your desires, not increase the tap, if that makes sense. And yet you keep pulling the same, most people keep pulling the same lever.

I just need to earn more rather than I need to lower my desires. So a very real home example right now, it's about $6,000 actually. [32:27] When we bought our house, when we built our house, this is nearly 20 years ago, we had zero money left over and we didn't have any furniture.

So I wasn't going to go borrow for furniture. So we scraped together about two grand and we bought someone's like entire houses, they went overseas. And so we got like fridge, couch, washing machine, so for like everything, which was an amazing deal at the time.

But clearly nothing really fits or matches our house. We just grabbed someone else's second hand furniture, which was already second hand at the time. [32:57] So we've got really old couches that were stained at the time, now they're really stained. They're completely mismatched in terms of our new house and these terrible couches. And we did get new carpet, but my daughter had this like borrowed this toy, this Makita toy that kind of was a fake chainsaw and it leaked battery acid on the floor and there's a big hole in there. And now my dog has ripped up that hole and made it bigger and no matter how much a patch, it looks terrible.

So this is our lounge room, you know, and for years I've been like, oh, I [33:26] just can't stand our carpet and I can't stand our couches. It will be about six to 10 grand to do a property right, probably 10 more realistically. And I've almost pulled the trigger on that a few times.

Okay, it's time, which would mean we borrow against it, which is fine. But each time I just keep thinking, you know, like, do I need this? Will it actually make me happy?

Or could I practice letting go of my desires [33:53] and actually see what I currently have? Because there's some cool things about the couch as much as it's messy and dirty. Well, it's not dirty as much as it's messy. The dog can jump on it and don't stress out. The kids can leave their rubbish all over and lie on however they want. And I don't feel at all precious because it's just an old couch. Does that make sense?

NARRATOR: I don't think it's so stressed about how clean the lounge room looks because there's a hole in the cup. There's no amount of fixing. It's going to make it like [34:21] an Instagram lifestyle house. And so there's some benefits to the simplicity, but the other benefit is, well, actually, that 10 grand is more important used for other things. You know, we probably couldn't run this podcast without about that much. We probably couldn't do my trips overseas. There's things that I value more rather than couches. But what I need to do on a, let's say, semi regular basis [34:49] is say, no, I don't need this. I'm going to let go.

We've practiced this. You know, I'm going to let go of my attachments or let go of my need for a nice couch and nice carpet. But one day, of course, we'll replace it when the income's there.

But at the moment, I'd rather practice letting go of the need and desire than to trigger the need for increased income. And that's a tiny example. And [35:12] look, six, 10 grand, it's not huge. But gosh, once you start desiring other people's bigger houses or better, better cars or better overseas holidays, it's a game changer, the ability to reduce your desire and to have an anti bucket list. As Arthur Brooks talks about where you write your bucket list down and you deliberately let them go. You relinquish the need to have those things and start to find the joy in what you already have. It's a mindset shift, but it needs to be practiced no matter where you are in life, I think. [35:41] What are your thoughts?

MATT BAIN: Well, for starters, I want to start being more actively grateful to your couch, to be able to provide the opportunity for this podcast that goes long, never felt that about.

DANIEL SIH: This podcast has been sponsored by the thing that I've got a shitty couch. The thing is, it's going to make me view my own couch through slightly different eyes now. I feel I'm going to start to under-appreciate. I know I might have a better barbecue, but your couch rocks.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, but it didn't get us a podcast.

NARRATOR: So yeah, that's good. There is a lot of wisdom, particularly, I think, like the angle of [36:10] being clear on what you do, want to spend your money on in terms of being clear as to what benefits it actually does bring. Yeah, and we're going to talk about that next episode.

DANIEL SIH: Like, how do you actually work out what to spend money on and what not to, because it's not about being tired on everything, but it's about knowing what you value and what your great yeses are. So I might finish with a Housel's line on this particular point. There's often more [36:40] psychological upside to managing expectations down than pushing circumstances up. It's a simple idea. There's more psychological upside to managing expectations down than pushing circumstances up. But gosh, it is one that most people don't concentrate on enough, and it requires a whole lot of letting go to get there.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, that's great. Okay, Dan, I think now's a good time to enter into our traditional moment of silence to kind of think and ponder and try to digest all the stuff that we've been talking about in relation to money. But before we get there, got to be really clear, we are not, [37:06] please hear us, we are not saying that you don't need to provide for yourself or any dependence that you have. We are certainly not downplaying the value and the virtue of hard work, not saying that. We are certainly not advocating your cavalier with your investments at all. And we're certainly not encouraging people to be ignorant or negligent when it comes to their financial life, right? Yeah, so please hear us.

We think all that is super important. [37:33] But alongside that, so in conjunction with, we're just asking people to stop and think about the psychology of money. Again, the story that we tell ourselves about money and again, each person's story is going to be at least slightly different from each other. Yeah, but we all have our money scripts if you like. And that's usually related to what goods, what ends can money provide. So we want to be really clear about again, what we're actually chasing via money and money's usefulness in terms of actually securing [38:01] those goals. That makes sense.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, and also drawing on the often or almost always neglected power of reducing your desires and giving up your attachments. Because that is always going to be needed no matter what you end up with financially if you want to feel like you have enough.

MATT BAIN: Yes, yeah, that's good. So on that, there's, as it turns out, a stoic saying, an old stoic saying those guys knew a little bit about getting by [38:30] and reducing their desires on reducing their desires.

And so they said, this is worth thinking about for a moment. They wrote, not needing wealth is more valuable than wealth itself. Not needing wealth is more valuable than wealth itself. So as you take a moment, just think about what is wealth for you?

Do you really need more? [38:54] And how much space and perhaps simplicity and I'd add to that, like, I guess, tranquility, calm, peace of mind, contentment, call it what you will. Could you actually create or free up by practicing enoughness? So again, turning down those desires rather than chasing more and more and more.

DANIEL SIH: [39:39] So look, hopefully that moment was useful. Money is challenging. It's complex. And yet it's super important to think about in detail. So while we're going to talk about seven practices next week to help you lower your desires and I suppose need less when it comes to money, you know, reduce your desires so that you can practice what we call enoughness. We want to leave you with something practical to [40:04] walk away with today. So we've been going through something called the aware framework, which is an acrostic that helps kind of pull together all the different ideas from this podcast into, I think, five key ideas that you can practice. The first one is to practice appreciation to, I suppose, practice gratitude.

The more you focus on what you have, the less you'll need and the more you'll feel like you have enough. [40:28] The second one is to watch for the kairos moments. And so that's an episode we talked about last week, which is about living in the everyday and not necessarily fixing your happiness to a rigid desired future. The next one is acceptance, which is to accept what you can't change. Yeah, the realities. And living with that and learning to appreciate what you do have.

We have relinquish, which is about getting rid of attachments or letting go of the things [40:56] you desire. And the last one is practicing enoughness, which is the focus of this episode. So we have one practical activity to help you practice enoughness between now and next week.

It is a mindset activity, but I think it has practical real world consequences. And we'd like you to think about one, maybe two. Yeah, two are going to be good.

Yeah, let's think about two desires that you have. Things that you think you want might be that $6,000 barbecue. It might be that new couch. It might be that [41:25] holiday to a beater.

It might be that upgraded house, which is going to cost you an extra million dollars because of Renault's, you know, could be anything. But I'd love you to write it down and be honest about what you're chasing because most of us in our minds are chasing something.

MATT BAIN: And we'd be like, we encourage people not to overthink that. You know what I mean? Like don't try to justify it or rationalize it in your head. Just if you feel on it, go with it.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. And look, a classic would be, you know, [41:53] what do you think you need to be happier? Or what is it that you're chasing that will lead to a better life? Write it down. And then I want you to ask the question, what's the goal behind the goal? So what is the thing that you want from this? Because it's not that you want a holiday overseas. You actually want to feel free or you want to feel like you've escaped work because you deserve it. Or you want to feel like you connect with kids or family [42:18] or that you have memories that actually lead to happiness. There's a thing behind the goal usually when it comes to finances. Yeah.

MATT BAIN: And maybe even be honest. Like again, don't be scared or don't let being scared stop you from being honest with yourself. Because like there's always a bunch of mixed motives. So in the holiday example, perhaps like part of you, the end is that you want to be able to come here and put it up on your social media.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. And [42:42] there's no, we're a mixed bag, right? Some of the things are more noble. Some of them are less noble. Write down honestly and authentically what you're seeing about it. What are you chasing? And the last thing then is can you, I suppose relinquish those desires and try to lower them in the sense of say, OK, well, if I didn't have a holiday overseas, is there a way I could connect with friends or connect with my kids right here and right now this weekend [43:11] and create a meaningful experience, which is what I really want. Yeah.

You know, if it's that you actually want something that gives you status, you know, online, well, then maybe, you know, can you practice relinquishing the need for that and just accept that actually you're enough as you are or I don't know, use AI and pretend that you're overseas.

MATT BAIN: I don't know. Maybe you replace it like with a value that again, like that you can see is actually worth more.

DANIEL SIH: [43:36] Which is worth more. Well, yeah, that's a better example. But does that make sense? So the exercise is write down the two desires that you're chasing the most that potentially will most likely will cost you a fair amount of money. And there's an opportunity cost and maybe even debt associated with that or at least more stress and more hours at work. Write those two things down.

Write down what the goal behind the goal is what you're really wanting to chase and then see if you can find a simpler, easier way to achieve it right now. That's good. [44:02] In that sense, be like the Mexican fisherman where you can actually enjoy the sun today and not feel like you have to actually work 60 hours a week to get a retirement plan to then free up the space and time and money so that you can sit in the sun today.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, while still sending your kids to college or university if that's what they want to do.

DANIEL SIH: You had a big problem with that in your mind. Hey, I'm really looking forward to next week. But hopefully this has been a useful episode to people. [44:31] Essentially money matters. Mindset matters what might look like to reduce your desires and to experience more joy in the present so that you have enough so that you are enough and so that you're not always chasing more.

But next week we're going to dive into seven practices to help you shift your money mindset in a very practical way. And I'm looking forward to that. In the meantime, I'm going to have a barbecue at your house and

MATT BAIN: for the rest of us make space. That's great, mate. I won't be sitting on your couch any time soon.

NARRATOR: [44:59] The Spacemakers with Daniel C and Matt Bain.

DANIEL SIH: Big thanks to our sponsor Fullers Bookshop, Australia's oldest independent bookshop and our absolute favourite place for coffee and Hobart.

NARRATOR: [45:12] If you feel busy, overloaded and struggling to keep up, The Spacemakers Dojo is here to help. This online community is for busy professionals like you dedicated to making space together. Dive into The Dojo to regain control of your time and make space in a supportive, accountable community. Visit spacemakers.au/dojo to find out more.