DANIEL SIH: [00:00] Hey there, Space Makers. I'm Daniel Sih, here with my good friend and co-host, Matt Bain. Welcome to the fourth season of The Spacemakers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life.

NARRATOR: This is The Spacemakers.

DANIEL SIH: This season, we go deeper, challenging our constant self-improvement culture and what it's doing to us. It's a podcast designed to help you step off the busy treadmill, let go of the constant need for more [00:30] and make space for a life that is truly enough. Big thanks to our long-time sponsor, Bulk Nutrients, providing high-quality supplements at affordable prices. If you're a new customer, you can enjoy 5% off your first order at bulknutrients.com.au/spacemakers.

NARRATOR: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL SIH: Everyone tells you you need big goals to aim high, [00:58] dream big, do something audacious. And so you set, I don't know, a big, hairy, audacious goal, something huge like running a marathon or starting a business, changing careers. I don't know, maybe building your dream home and it inspires you for a while and then it doesn't because you know that you've done this before. You know that the goalposts keep moving, you know that chasing something in the future sometimes demotivates you or that sometimes a big, hairy, audacious goal just feels so overwhelming that you can't get started. And so we're going to talk today about how sometimes setting big goals can be limiting, how they can rob us of joy, how they can push us into the future so that we feel like we'd never have enough in the present. And in this episode of The Space Makers, we're going to focus on what we call the goal paradox, the idea that setting goals is both healthy and unhealthy. And yet there is another way [01:55] to move forward in life without setting goals, which the ancient Greeks call Kairos moments, learning to live in Kairos time versus Kronos time and learning to actually pay attention to the serendipitous, surprising, unexpected moments that happen day by day in order to move forward, even if you're not quite sure where you're heading. It's a counterintuitive way of moving forward in life and finding direction without necessarily setting big goals. It's not an either or, [02:23] but a both and exercise, but one we feel has been neglected in at least the time management and self-help literature. So we're going to talk about Kairos moments and we're going to talk about how to make space to be enough by paying attention to the moment. So if you're here for the first time, my name is Daniel Sih and you're listening to The Spacemakers podcast, a podcast to help you make space for an intentional meaningful life. And we are here more than midway through our fourth season. We call it a podcast because we focus on a particular course or a particular idea with handouts and content. And this season is cold enough. All this self-help is killing me. And we're talking about how to make space for a life that is truly enough. I'm here with my good friend and co-host Matt Bain. I say he is the ying to my yang. I'm here drinking water and how many coffees are you up to today, Matt?

MATT BAIN: [03:17] A few more than you, mate. This is number, I think we worked at number five. Like, not that I want to brag about it or make a big deal about it.

DANIEL SIH: Pretty early in the morning. We were actually debating getting you a carafe of coffee to start with.

MATT BAIN: I'm open to that. I'm definitely open to that.

DANIEL SIH: But it's good to have you back here talking about goal setting and Kairos moments.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great to be here. I was trying to think about, I suppose, like how we're trying to pitch this, because like you said before, and I think this is critically important, this is a both, right? So we're going to be talking about serendipitous moments, Kairos moments, and we're going to be talking about the importance still of setting goals. So I was trying to, again, like, pitch this in my head. And I think what we're after some kind of hybrid or mix between Anthony Robbins, perhaps over here and Jeff Bridges, character from the Big Lebowski, the dude. It was completely Kairos moment driven. We won't both.

DANIEL SIH: We won't both. But I think there is a real value in actually learning to pay attention to the moment, which will be our focus.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, that's probably the more neglected part, right?

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, I like goals. I'm a goal set up by nature. So I'm probably more like your Tony Robbins.

MATT BAIN: You are my Tony Robbins. Without the jaw. Without the jaw. You're not like my Tony Robbins. You are my Tony Robbins, mate.

DANIEL SIH: And not just mine. You're lots of people's Tony Robbins. I'm jealous. I want an island for myself. But look, I am a goal set up by nature. [04:33] Look, you and I work in time management and productivity. OK, so we teach people to set goals. We teach people to break them down, to break big things into small steps, to plan their week, to time block, to essentially take longer term ideas and then bring them into the present. And, you know, I've got a course called Priority Samurai, which is an e-learning course. It's excellent. And it's available for people who just want to actually learn how to set goals and work in life, but translate the intention into action. It works. OK. I mean, [05:03] I do like the expression someone once said that no one gets to the top of Mount Kilimanjaro, turns around and wonders how they got there. You don't find yourself into some with a business that is profitable and sustainable and then think, hey, how did that happen? What an accident. There's a sense where we need to have a vision for the future and actually head there. That's pretty obvious, right? Yeah, I think so. So, look, let's just assume that goal setting works. But there's also a lot of problems with goal setting and particularly around our conversation around enough. All this self-help is killing me. This is this idea that we always feel like we need to have more and be more and pursue more or self-optimize for a future and then somehow miss the present. I think this conversation can be really useful because goals can actually cause us to need more, want more, have more and actually never be content with enough.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, particularly the variety of goals that I assume most people are familiar with, but the bags. The bags.

DANIEL SIH: The bag or the B-hags, I think. The G. Collins would have called it. I don't know. Is it a bag or a B-hag? B-h-a-g. Tell us about a B-hag.

MATT BAIN: The B-hag or the bag is the big, hairy, audacious type of goal. Yeah, yeah. So the ones that are super, or usually like medium to long term at least and like the name denotes ambitious. So they meant to stretch it, right? Like they're meant to be, they meant to like put some degree of fear or trepidation. Well, they're always asperacious. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but also trepidation because again, like they're like, like they're audacious, right?

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, but you put it out there and because they're audacious, they're stretch goals.

MATT BAIN: They're stretch goals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, and hairy denotes fear.

DANIEL SIH: And hairy. Yeah, okay, hairy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If they were smooth, like, yeah, it'd be different, but they're hairy. This is not a smooth shaven, audacious goal.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, there we go. But we get the point, right? You set a big goal, but it can backfire. So tell us about four ways we think setting B-hags. Yes. Or at least just [06:59] big goals can be demotivating and maybe draw us out of the present. Yeah, the first one that it's worth kicking off with is that B-hags can tend to be overwhelming with time. So again, not initially like initially maybe super stowed to get super inspired to kick off, but they can pretty soon, it can dawn on you that it's going to be overwhelming. And again, if they're audacious in nature, if they're like relatively medium to long term in terms of their time frame, then it can lead to this point of saying, well, [07:28] I've set this goal, but I really haven't mapped out how to get from here to there. So I know like the end of it, the finish line is all the way out here. And again, it's pretty grand and audacious. So now how to get from where I currently am, my present state to there, in between can just become overwhelming, which leads to paralysis. Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: So you feel like, look, I'm unfit, haven't exercised for ages. I'm feeling, you know, the consequences of not being very active in my health. And now I'm going to run a marathon. There's your B-hag, right? Yeah, that's right. And it sounds good because it gives you a future goal. You can start to imagine it and almost experience some of the joy of having kind of run that marathon across the finish line and had a different body. But but then the reality sets in.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's right. Reality sets in. Yeah. And and that's a really good example. Because like, no doubt, if you just even like Google, okay, [08:17] 12 month running plans for a marathon, you will be barraged by a bunch of different options. So if you didn't know any better, again, this like you can so easily become overwhelmed and paralysed by all the different options that are and possibilities for reaching that big, hairy or audacious goal.

DANIEL SIH: All right. So look, they're overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah. So instead of doing anything, you do nothing. It's that it's that kind of it's that kind of overwhelming. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the first one. The second one and it's kind of related because again, like a bunch of these are almost like [08:46] I call them psychological speed humps, like when it comes to goal setting, again, big, hairy or audacious goals. Yeah. So the second pitfall is that it can just be really, really hard to start. So going back to the marathon example, you may end up with a plan. So you may have worked out, well, this is actually the way that I can step out to get from here where I am to where I need to go and cross that finish line. But the plan is saying, guess what, Mount, you've got to run X amount of Ks. If not like every second, if not every day, maybe every second day, at least you have to get out of bed. That's the hard bit, right? Not when you drink as much coffee as I do, mate. You are bounding. But the issue is chances are if you're the kind of person who's already set on this big, hairy or audacious goals, your life is already full. And it's already populated with a bunch of stuff that you already feel obligated or required to do. So suddenly you've added this extra big thing, this extra great, so like you're already juggling a bunch of balls and the income's like a massive ball that you've got to keep up in the air with all the others. And suddenly you're thinking, man, I know what I've got to do, but I just don't have time. So I can't start it. I can't even get this thing off the ground. And that becomes super demotivating, right? Because you're adding without subtraction. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so goals can be demotivating. That can be hard to start.

MATT BAIN: What's the third point that you have? The third one is that, again, like those big, audacious goals, [10:04] that are usually so future focused and like medium to long-term future focused, there's a risk that they rob us of the joy that we can experience in the present. So the risk here is that your perspective can become so wedded to a something that is so future oriented and that takes a fair bit of work again and small steps to get from here to there, that it robs you. It kind of distracts you, if you like, from the good things in your life that you can already enjoy here in the present.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, so I'm a very future oriented goal setter. I think about the future a lot and where I want to head. That's definitely been true for me. It's great to map out a plan and to say in three years I'd like the business to be here, but it's hard to know how to reach for that future and enjoy the present. [10:49] And again, the closer you get to a goal, a goal setter then just sets a new goal, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you just keep pushing the goal post further ahead. And so you're always living in the future and you're never enough in the present, where it fits with this theme of not being enough.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. And again, we want to give credit and props to the fact that anticipating something is often like a great part of life. So the joy that comes with anticipation, you know, with the planning, with the lead up, that's great. I'm like, I think I've said it before, but I actually get more excited. I actually enjoy Christmas even more than often enjoy Christmas because it's part of the like the build up in seriously. And I'm sure that I'm not alone there. So like, I want to give that a to do. But I guess like we're talking about getting so preoccupied with a future goal. And the realization of that, that it blinds you again, really takes you away from everything. It robs you of the joy and the satisfaction that you can experience here and now.

DANIEL SIH: But this robbing the present with the future, right? Yes. Yeah. You got to be careful about that. And we came out with four, four ideas.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we did. We did. And maybe four and a half.

DANIEL SIH: We'll see how we go. Oh, no, yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about adding like a new one. And we shouldn't have had that fifth off. But the fourth one is that big goals can blind you, if you like, to new possibilities. Yeah. Big goals can blind you like to new possibilities. And this is like the idea again, you can get so caught, preoccupied, fixated, obsessed with the particular details of your BHAG. As in you must have all those details realized that in the process, you're again immune. You just don't notice the fact that along the way, there could be other possibilities that have popped up as part of trying to kind of attain that goal that actually give you more rewarding if you like payoffs. Yeah. Yeah. And so like often like a classic is people, and I saw this all the time, people decide they get really again, fixated on the goal of getting a particular qualification or degree for a particular career, you know, or perhaps like they've started off in that career and they've got like, you know, like they're an investment bank or maybe that like they're a lawyer and they just want to want to want to make a partner. That's really important to them. But along the way, you know, you may, despite your focus on this, you might kind of like notice yourself enjoying things like working with people alongside you. So you may naturally find a hold of contentment and satisfaction in the social interaction or even like just like they're helping people along the way. But and that could have been an avenue. It could have been a new possibility for perhaps a different shift in your career where you stepped into something that involved more helping people kind of things like helping people directly. But again, you play that down or you ignore it at your own peril because it doesn't square away with the big, hairy or dangerous goal of say, making partner that you've previously identified. Yeah. And it could be with anything, right? You know, I really enjoy the data and leagues. So I enjoy the process of learning or I enjoy working pro bono work. But because, because you're not paying attention to those intuitive moments or the data that's kind of gathering as you explore life, you then close yourself off to the possibilities that might be outside of that ladder or that rigid framework. And therefore you find yourself at the end of, you know, that 10 year period may be reaching partner and realizing it wasn't what you wanted after all. Wrong wall. I mean, I've been amazed at hearing, let's say, Olympians who chase gold, which is clearly a massive ladder, right? And I've heard a number of interviews with Olympians who have said it's actually not joy, but it's relief that they have at the end of it. And then they're not quite sure what to do next. So I'm not saying you shouldn't chase gold, but there's a risk of having a rigid, [14:29] fixed future and missing the possibility. And we're going to really explore that in terms of Kairos moments, because I think this is where the idea of being able to be present and paying attention to what is available can actually be a really joyful life giving way of making decisions and quite counterintuitive or at least different to the goal setting motif. It's not either or, but I think in fact, I believe you don't want to be a goal setter [14:56] and not pay attention to the serendipitous moments as well. Because if you do, that's when you miss out on some of the richness of life. And you may find that you're not enough, whereas being present allows you to be enough. Yeah, that's good.

MATT BAIN: That's good. The risk here is that the goal setting process, if you like, and usually people invest so much time and effort in getting everything right, mapping out the steps and blah, blah, blah. It becomes a substitute for action, fractually doing something or focusing on the stuff that you know [15:24] that you're meant to be focusing on, but it's just too difficult or boring or mundane. So you kind of go for the big carry, light it up, go

DANIEL SIH: and set everything you've told everyone about it. It's almost like rather than finishing the goals that you've already set and the responsibilities that you've already committed to, you set goals in order to find a new distraction that might give you that to do something which you're

MATT BAIN: not going to. And there's a buzz that comes with it. There's a buzz that comes with setting the goal, kind of telling yourself, okay, again visualizing like the finish line, seeing yourself cross all that kind of stuff. And you put it on social media, hey everyone, because you know you're rare online, it's a great idea to make your big carry or audacious goals public. So you're more accountable, blah, blah, blah, get all the accolades, add a boy, get on your mount, run that marathon, blah, blah, blah, and it feels great, right? But the risk has become the distraction from the real work. I know you can't relate to that. I'm talking for people like me. Yeah, I don't understand. But thanks Matt. All right Dan, well now that I've given you something, I know you really struggle into relating to.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, really, Siri, I'm struggling to understand, does not compute. People don't achieve their goals. It doesn't make sense anyway.

MATT BAIN: So I'm really keen to hear what you've got to say about Kairos moments, because again, I know this is something that you could like for want of a better service have specialised in. And I guess I'm seeing this, and I want to believe this is going to be like a kind of like a good, if you like, call it a compliment or yeah, a compliment to just getting to the risk of getting hung up on setting and having to achieve big carry or dangerous goals, which I think is a great way. Again, if you're getting too preoccupied, big carry or dangerous goals, it's a great way to kind of over max out your life. So it will never be enough. It'll be one big carry or dangerous goal after another, after another, after another. So you'll never feel like you've kind of done enough or that you are enough. So tell us how Kairos moments can be a great compliment to [17:13] achieving like or setting the right amount of big or dangerous goals in order to live a life that does feel like it's enough.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, and look, maybe it is because of my personality, but I like I use this term carefully, but I genuinely would say understanding Kairos moments has been life changing for me. Like it has literally changed how I've lived my life, life over 15 years, you know, it's been incredibly valuable. So just quickly concept of Kairos moments and how to live them.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I fair to say it's almost like saves a strong word, right? But it stopped you. It stopped you from being someone who probably was going to go down the big carry or dangerous goal line exclusively.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. In fact, I'd probably actually say, look, I set goals regularly, but I'm much less driven by those goals than I used to be, or at least those goals are more fluid because of the Kairos moment concept. And I think that's been a really healthy shift in my life. So in terms of the word Kairos, if you haven't heard of it before, the word Kairos is an ancient Greek term for time, which, you know, fits on a time management consultant. So I care a lot about time. So look, the Greeks had a few words for time. The two big ones were Kronos and Kairos, two different ideas. Whereas we really just have one idea in the West. And I think we're in the least in English, the English language, and I think this is problematic. So we'll go to the Greek. So Kronos time is TikTok time. It's time that is clock driven. It's linear. It's measurable. It's predictable. It's, it's, you know, Kronos is the root for chronological time. We're all familiar with Kronos. It's when you have to get to the bus at 830 in the morning. It's when you have to wake up at a particular time. It's when you've got a meeting at 1015 and then you've got like a bunch of kind of commitments that have to happen at three o'clock. It's, it's the kind of clock, a clock driven time that drives what we do each day. And that's what we understand as time management. But, but there's a different concept of time altogether, which is Kairos time. And Kairos is a moment of significance. It's a moment of significance where you pause from the ordinary run of TikTok time and something happens and you pay attention to it. And that's the critical thing. You pay attention to it and it actually changes your mindset. It changes your actions. It changes the direction that you were heading in the past. What is interesting is that Kairos moments, like when we look back at the March of Time, if we look back at our life, no one says, I love that I got my inbox to zero every day. No one says, I love that I was a time blocker or, or that I ate breakfast at seven o'clock every morning. And I love that I regularly did the shopping. Like we live in Kronos time, but what matters in terms of the meaning of our lives is Kairos. I remember the time when [20:00] I saw my wife walk down the aisle. And I remember the time where I met my child for the first time. They were born. I remember that time where I fell off my mountain bark and broke my leg, but it led me to start a nonprofit. I mean, these are all true for me. You know, I remember the time where I got that phone call that my friend had died. And I had to call others and tell them that was a Kairos moment. I remember the time when I published my book after seven years and I finally held it in my hand and I'm like, that was meaningful. [20:29] Does that make sense? Those moments are so much more significant and they kind of, they provide meaning and define a lot of your life.

MATT BAIN: Well, it sounds like you're talking about a quality. It's a quality. It's a quality as opposed to just like the sheer quantity of all marked parcels of time.

DANIEL SIH: It's a quality. It's almost like, imagine a line and [20:51] with an arrow and that's your life. And then occasionally there's a cross in the middle of those arrows and they're the Kairos moments, the moments of significance that have the potential for guiding you, for adding meaning and for giving purpose to your otherwise TikTok life, TikTok meaning.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, it doesn't work anymore.

DANIEL SIH: But those moments can be positive. [21:17] Like they can be, you know, really high, happy, joyful events that stand out and that give you purpose and meaning. I went on holiday to the Solomon Islands. I'll always remember that experience with my kids and that moment has meaning beyond the rest of my life or as a whole. Or I remember the time when, I don't know, something terrible happened. You know, I got diagnosed with this illness and that actually really shaped my life. But Kairos moments don't have to be big. It's like the Big Herioticious Girls. They don't have to be Big Herioticious events. What I've realized is Kairos moments happen every day. If we pay attention, if we live what Socrates calls the examined life, you can actually pay attention. If you know how to and then if you know what to do with Kairos moments, well, then it can change how you live and how you make decisions. In fact, Ann-Laurel LeCoumpf talks about Kairos moments as well in her book, Tiny Experiments. It's a good book. [22:15] But that chapter kind of again points to this reality that I've seen in the ancient writings for a long time, that if you learn to pay attention to the everyday serendipitous surprise moments, the ah-ha moments or the sliding door moments, and do something about them, well, then your life can head in a direction that is remarkable and surprising, even if you're not quite sure what the goal is at the end of it. It's almost like bottom up thinking rather than top down thinking, [22:42] allowing moments to guide your future rather than a preset destination to be the sole marker of your life. It's not either or I think it's both and, but Kairos moments are very under misrepresented or underrepresented in our culture, I think. We bias the left brain thinking rather than the right brain thinking, the more kind of systematic goal oriented approach to moving forward, rather than, you know, [23:11] in a generic sense, the more artistic gut feel emotional responses. And I think this is where we're talking about that balance.

MATT BAIN: Okay, that's good. So yeah, so moments of significance, probably daily in occurrence, but I need to be paying attention to actually pick them up. And if I do recognise them, they can almost serve as landmarks or I don't know, guideposts for where I should be going. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's cool.

DANIEL SIH: So look down and chip Heath wrote a book called the power of moments, they didn't use the term Kairos moments, but the whole book was about the power of moments. It's the same idea. Okay, as Kairos. And they said this, our lives are measured in moments and defining moments are the ones that endure in our memories. Kairos moments don't just add meaning, they also help you to change your mind. Okay, and this is the very nature of the Kairos moments. So they, they change us. So down and chip Heath in the power of moments, talk about moments of insight. And they talk about [24:17] moments of insight being flashes of clarity, where something clicks and you couldn't see it before. They also talk about the idea of maybe crystallising or consolidating something that you knew was kind of in you subconsciously you needed to do, but it's kind of that moment that crystallises that clarity and provides action. So it might be, you know, I've been slogging away at this business for five years, it's unprofitable. I've poured so much into it. But then something happens, it's a Kairos you pay attention, it was like, now it's time to let that go. Or similarly, it might be actually I've been slaving away in a job that I don't like for a long time, I've had this kind of side hustle and dream. The Kairos might be maybe it's time to actually start a business. Does that make sense? But Kairos can bring moments of clarity. They help us to change our minds. Does that make sense?

MATT BAIN: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. There's a great, and like we'll probably edit this out because you know, but I'm going to tell it anyway. There's a great short story by Chuck Klosterman, where the protagonist is like a relatively like happily partnered up, successful, like businessman, entrepreneur, and he's at some like exclusive kind of holiday destination with a bunch of similarly well-heeled and successful entrepreneurs and their partners and blah blah blah. Beak and tell, he's got all these misgivings about how he spent his life and he's kind of on the brink of deciding whether to make a big change or not, but he's not sure and he doesn't really have the kind of like, you know, the guts for it. [25:43] Anyway, this entire party is out on a dock at this really nice property at night and a storm comes in, right? And there's lightning, a thunder, blah blah blah. Everyone else is looking this way. This guy, the protagonist turns this way, and he sees a whale leap out of the ocean and gets simultaneously struck by lightning. And apparently this can happen and it has happened, but the chances of this happening is so, so, so, so, so infant time.

DANIEL SIH: Infant dissimony. That word, minute. And this guy witnessed it. And I was like, there's a story? No, not that I'm aware of. It's a short story again by Intercollection. Anyway, and the protagonist goes, that's it. And he turns to his partner and says, we live in all of this. We're changing all of this. You see this and I can't ignore it. This is the sign. Everything's got a chance. So it's a Kairos, right? And actually, if we're honest, I think most people, I think almost all people have experienced something like that in their lives. No, no, no, no, maybe not a whale.

MATT BAIN: No, no, no, no, no, no, but, but, but, but here's the thing, right? Like this is, this is, this is my challenge. [26:41] If everyone had those signs or something similar, life would be easy. So like the challenge, I think is not so much like ignoring the big signs, sometimes like they come in your right, like they aren't in common. So I want to give that a stew. But the larger challenge is actually having the headspace and the attention to pay, to actually recognize and reflect on, slash process the page turners, going back to what you were saying before, because those things add up.

DANIEL SIH: Well, maybe, look, and that is true. And maybe I've just been trained in this for so long, and it's been such a way of life that I just see this all the time. [27:10] So in terms of like where it came from me, again, you and I come from a Christian faith background. And actually the ancient Greeks is the same language that, you know, the Bible was written in. So there's a very famous passage where Jesus enters into his ministry, and he teaches this thing. He says, the time has come, the kingdom of God is near. This is the translation in English, repent and believe the good news. It's kind of like a very famous religious passage. But when I looked into this passage, and I was trained in it, I was like, oh my gosh, this is so practical, no matter how you see the world. So the word time that Jesus uses is chyrus. So the time has come, the chyrus has come. God's kingdom is here. So I would say that, you know, that the ability to experience something supernatural or out of this world is here when the chyrus comes. That's the same idea. The term repent in ancient Greek that was actually used was metanoia. So metanoia and then pistola. So metanoia means change your mind, which is a completely different idea from what we use as this kind of weird, really just word repent. So he says, when the chyrus comes, you change your mind. Meta means like big, noia is mind in Greek. Okay. And so you change your mind. And that example of the whale is a perfect example, right? When the chyrus hits you and you have a page turner or a chapter turner, if you pay attention to it and allow it to change your schema and wake you up and break you out of the sleepwalk that you have in life, well, then you'll actually change your mind about what you see as your worldview, your own beliefs or how you interpret the world around you. And by changing your mind, well, then the second thing is what the Greeks call pistola, I think, or pistis is actually like the word faith. It's a very similar idea that you change your actions in response to your change in mindset. Okay. So that's essentially how I've been taught to see chyrus moments that I'm literally walking through life. And there's like a moment, it might be a conversation that I have, it might be a dream that I have, it might be a line in a song or a movie. I might be out in nature and experience something. It might be like an electrocuted whale. It might be an electrocuted whale. But I mean, seriously, I see chyrus moments like, it's a bit like what that movie, I see dead people every now and then. I see Kairos moments everywhere. There are always these like strange, serendipitous, interesting, curious events [29:32] that if I pause and have a gap between the stimulus and the response, if I say, no, this could be a chyrus moment, and I pause and reflect on it, then often what happens is I change my mind about myself or the world around me. And then if I commit to changing my actions in response to that, well, then it leads to a different direction than I was heading in before. And if you do that again and again, you know, what Mike Green calls walking the circle, you go from kind of like the change the mind to change your action, change your mind to change your action. We end up with the slinky life where actually literally end up somewhere without necessarily knowing where that somewhere was going to be. It's a different way of achieving goals than having that rigid, fixed mindset of goal setting. Now often chyrus moments give me the direction I need to unlock the goal that I'm trying to reach so that they're not mutually exclusive. I want to set an automated business and create a podcast that works. And then it's the Kairos moments that help me understand what I should speak about or who I should talk to or what decision I should make in the moment. Those page terms can help me towards that kind of rigid goal. But there's definitely a way of paying attention to them and being guided by them, allowing them to change my mind. Does that make sense?

MATT BAIN: Yeah, it's good. So again, we're not talking again extremes, we're not talking Anthony Robbins over here. We're not talking.

DANIEL SIH: Poor Tony Robbins.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, we're not talking about, I think he's doing all right.

DANIEL SIH: I think he's doing it. He'll get on.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, we're not talking about like the dude from the Big Lebowski over here either. But it is a hand. Yeah. And look, yeah, that's, I mean, one thing I guess like we're probably going to get to real soon is that the pushback would be given what you've said. Is that like, look, Dan, look, if your perception is shaped that you're seeing this serendipitous moments every day, then of course, like you're going to see a bunch of serendipitous moments. And of course, like you're going to give them a whole lot of weighted significance. But is that just you like telling yourself this thing was, I mean, seeing a whale leave out of the water and get struck by lightning is one thing. But again, you know, oh, you know, I just listened to that song yesterday and the lyric really struck me and it's really so relevant to days I sell. I mean, like, you know what I mean?

DANIEL SIH: Of course, yeah, you want to buy a car, you decide I'm going to buy a Toyota Corolla or whatever. And then you start seeing it everywhere. So similarly, if you look for Kairos moments, do you see them everywhere? Yeah. And I think, look, the argument would be, yes, I mean, I link Kairos moments to I suppose the the reflective emotional spiritual life. And I think it is a part of your brain that you grow and you develop. So in that sense, yes, once you practice and develop it, you see more of it. But I don't know, maybe I can give you some stories even because I think there's been some really tangible, [32:05] surprising guiding things kind of not quite whale moments, things that have been useful. And I've not just me, I mean, I've heard this from thousands of people who talk about Kairos moments.

MATT BAIN: Just before like we get there, though, like, like my understanding is that in terms of a filter, you're also checking these in as in you're checking your reflections on these Kairos moments with other people. Is that right?

DANIEL SIH: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, maybe I'll go through how look, let's go through the how you use this first. I'll finish it off. Okay. So so this is how I practically would use a Kairos moment. And I've got to acknowledge my brain, why I want to acknowledge my brain's work. He wrote a religious book, Building a Discipling Culture, but it was based on the teachings of Jesus. And I found it incredibly useful in multiple contexts. So and he draws, he draws an image in which he calls walking the circle. So imagine a line, it's an arrow, and there's a cross in the center. Okay. And the line represents a chronos time, tick tock time. And then all of a sudden, there's an a hot moment, it could [33:03] be a small thing or a big thing, but there's your Kairos, it's represented by a cross. Can you kind of visualize that? Yep. And then you draw a circle from that cross, because you have a choice at that moment. Do I keep going forward, like, you know, jump over that, push through that speed hump and ignore it, or do I pause and reflect on the meaning of it, assuming it might have purpose and meaning. If you do, there's two parts. One is to change your mind, and the other is to change your action, two halves of the circle. [33:32] And there's kind of six parts. Now, if you want to see the diagram and get a deeper explanation, go to spacemakers.au forward slash s4, because we have all of our content. There's six components. Okay, so the first thing you do is you ask what, what happened? You know, let's not talk about the whale moment, but I was, I was walking, and I tripped over and stubbed my toe, and I swore and got really angry. That could be a Kairos moment. Okay. And why did I feel so angry? Okay, so, so the what that happened was I tripped over and stubbed my toe. The second one is why? Why did it happen? Okay, well, why did I feel so angry? Oh, I don't know, it's because I'm feeling super frustrated, generally in life, and I'm really upset about my job. Does that make sense? Like the why can be quite different from the what? [34:19] Yeah, that is quite different. Yes. But you have to reflect. Okay. And, and then the third component is discuss. So this is the part where I would be talking about it with someone else. Now, I don't talk about every Kairos that I process with others, but anything that has significance, I'd check in with friends or others because they give you better perspectives and checking in communities got to make you far more likely to process something accurately. You're a believer in that. I know that.

MATT BAIN: Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, and eventually, some's going to say, change your footwear mate, because you're always on a trip and over stuff.

DANIEL SIH: And then it might be a simple that, right? Yeah, yeah. But the point is that at the end of that process, you ask the, this is the change your mind process. It's like, okay, well, is there anything that needs to change in my thinking as a result of this? What? Why? And discussion? There's your first part. The second part is, well, what's my plan? If I've decided, okay, actually tripping over and being so angry points to the fact that I'm really miserable in my job. What is the plan? Well, the plan is, I'm going to talk to my wife about my job and whether we should actually talk about a different type of career pathway. So it makes sense. You come up with something tangible to represent your change in mind. Act is the next bit. So what is the action? We'll basically just do it, do the thing, have the chat. And then accountability might be another piece where you actually are accountable to others. You might, you know, my texture. So I'm at, I've been avoiding this. I'm going to have this conversation, check up on me and make sure I did it. But the point is that if you continually respond to the chorus with a reflective moment, a change in mind and then a change in action, well, then it can lead to some kind of different direction over time. It's good. It's not complicated. It's not complicated. Anyone can do it. It's about pausing and recognizing those moments and doing something about it. [36:13] Although what I would say is some people are better at the reflection. Some people are better at the action. You only live the chorus life if you do both.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, gotcha. And my understanding is that not every single chorus is going to lead to like a huge action either. Like it may be more a case of like the next action could be just to keep on paying attention to say like the why, to something else crop up that leads to the same why. Again, I think the why came about because I'm angry and frustrated about my job. [36:41] Yeah, yeah. So it doesn't have to be again, every time you have one of these, you're making some great big, you know, cost a version. Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: And absolutely. So Matt, let's have a moment of silence. We've talked about lots of different ideas, goal setting, how goal setting can be helpful, but how it can also hinder us. We've talked about what it might look like to pay attention to moments of significance or a hot moments, what it might look like to change your mind, to change your actions and to achieve [37:09] a better future without necessarily knowing what that future looks like. But let's have a moment for people to pause as we always do and reflect. I might finish with some words from Anne-Laure Le Cunff from her book, Tiny Experiments. And she's writing about Kairos moments. She says, Kairos expresses the quality, not the quantity of time. It recognizes that each moment is unique with a unique purpose, rather than a fixed unit to be mechanically allocated. I like this. I like the idea that we can live in the present, experiment wildly, live creatively, and pay attention to the moments that come our way, rather than having to manipulate and control time the way we think we need to.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's great. It's humble. It's actually quite humble. Yeah. [38:25] So before we go any further, I reckon it is worth kind of like jumping back to the purpose that Kairos moments can serve in terms of acting as like guide posts. So Kairos moments can actually like guide us, right? And we've kind of like danced around this. But again, purist goal setter would say I'm going to impose meaning on life 110%. So any meaning that's there is imposed. The finish lines completely created, determined by me. Whereas if you have a mindset or a world view that allows that to some degree meaning is like revealed to you over time through different means, then Kairos moments can act as guide posts towards that.

DANIEL SIH: Right? Yeah. And the classic would be the Victor Frankl quote or work. So I mean, he was an Auschwitz survivor and wrote an amazing book called Man's Search for Meaning. It's very famous. He was also a, I think a psychologist or a therapist.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, so when he was in the death camp of Auschwitz, obviously he survived that most people didn't. He paid attention to who survived and who didn't. And his conclusion in this book was it was about whether people had an intrinsic sense of meaning and purpose even in the camps. So one of the things he said is that we don't invent or create our lives meaning we discover it. Meaning and essentially we don't impose meaning on our life. We pause, we make space, we pay attention to, I would say the Kairos moments or the meaningful moments that guide us and then we detect the purpose of our lives. And it's a very different posture than the traditional Western go get them and achieve your goal posture. But I find it very humbling and helpful. Yes. Yeah. So on that, I know that you've had instances like many instances in your life where again, like things have been revealed to you, little things like [40:15] over time, because you've stopped and paid attention to those Kairos moments that are, but those little things over time have led to fairly substantial changes. Like one that I think eventually added in me being bundled.

DANIEL SIH: The first time I've battled. Yeah. You and I were thinking, because I mean, I, when I look back at my life, it has been like the big decisions like who I married, where I live, I bought land in living community with another couple. Like that was a series of Kairos moments that led us to make that call. [40:43] I'm starting a business, moving to an automated income business. Like all of these moments have been very, very shaped by Kairos moments, either kind of the whale time moments, maybe not an electrocuted whale, but, but you know, big kind of, wow, these are chapter Turner events, but, but usually they're the tiny small page Turner events. So we, let me give you an example of that.

MATT BAIN: And so that's important. Usually they're the small ones.

DANIEL SIH: They're usually the small page. Yeah, of course, because you, but, but again, there's an if the, the if is if you pay attention to those Kairos moments, if you pause for long enough, make space and allow your mind to change. And if you allow your actions to shift in response to that change in metanoia, that mind. So one, one was when we started this podcast, for me, it came out of a whole lot of page Turner Kairos moments. And it started, well, it started when I was guessing, I was guest appearing on lots of podcasts. And so I was enjoying that. I was enjoying speaking [41:42] about my book, Spacemaker on podcasts. And that was great, but I never, ever considered starting my own podcast. I mean, it's just a dumb idea. They're stupidly expensive. They take so much time and most people don't listen to them, right? So I mean, it's just a dumb idea strategically. But I was chatting with my mentor. I have a mentor in, in Ireland and he's a coach. And as a coach, he's a true coach in the sense of he asks questions. He helps me discover meaning [42:12] by me finding my own solutions, but never, ever give a device, which frustrates me actually sometimes like there'll be times when I'll say, Hey, what do you think? And, you know, a lot of the time I'll get a question rather than advice. But for some reason, a few years ago, Mark just said, Hey, I don't know why I'm feeling this, but I think it, I won't even pretend to do an Irish accent, but I think it's time you started a podcast. And I'm like, it's random. We weren't talking about it. [42:41] It completely came out of the blue. And I said, Oh, Mark, why should I start a podcast? He goes, I don't know. I just think it's what you should do. There's nothing else. So I just thought, I know that's a dumb idea. But it was like, I liken it to like a stone in the shoe, you know, if you have a tiny pebble in your shoe and you walk around, it might be a tiny pebble, but you're going to notice it. And I kept thinking about it. And every time I thought about it, I thought this is a dumb idea. But I didn't, I couldn't shake it. [43:11] And then over the next, let's say six months, I had little moments after moments that just kind of nudged me towards, Oh, what if, and then I met someone who could be a podcast producer in Tassie. And then I met someone who could do this. And like all the pieces kind of came together without me actually deciding to do a podcast. And probably the big moment was over a few months, all of my chorus moments led to the fact that I was feeling a bit miserable because I wasn't spending enough time with people I cared about. And I wanted to spend more time with friends. And the, the recognition or realization for me is that actually my best friendships occur when I do stuff with people, rather than, I don't know, just sit around and have coffee. And then the, I haven't told you this the heart moment that we had. So you and I are in a prayer group together. And at the end of it, I think we're in San Ibae walking to a car and we just had this chat and it was about politics and about life and about productivity. And I got in the car and I remember thinking, mate, if that was recorded, [44:08] people would want to listen to it. It was really interesting that conversation. And I just thought, oh, get to hang out with my friend. We get to, you know, contribute to the world. And I think we can have meaningful conversations that are just the ones we hadn't seen in the Bay on the road and bring them to a larger audience. And the motivation for me was, okay, there's enough boxes there that kind of tick the cost, where the cost is, you know, the expense and the time and everything else. Yeah. So I suppose it was a number of page turners that led me to ask you and obviously, somehow for some reason, you said, yes, let's do this. And it became a chapter turner. And then we had a podcast. But there's no magic in that story. It's not like some kind of incredible, you know, fall from the sky experience. But I think without having paid attention to those small things, without journaling them, without going, walking the circle again and again, I probably wouldn't have said that start a podcast. Now we have, I'm really grateful for it. Yeah. Do you have any reflections on that?

MATT BAIN: Oh, no, no, well, no, well, I should say I'm grateful for it too. You know, yeah, for starters. But, but it's more the lesson there for me is like that could have gone somewhere completely different again, almost in any, if you hadn't followed every link of that chain. [45:30] So again, no big audacious standout electrified whale moments, but a sequence of small, but important, if you like, moments of, you know, significance with a small s that led eventually to like you said, the chapter turner.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. And what's interesting is actually once you and I had made the decision, let's start a podcast. Well, then I went for Tony Robbins and I'm like, okay, we're going to start a podcast. Let's make it good. Yeah, there you go. And then how do we break it down? [45:58] How do we get microphones? How do we get a producer? How do I fund this? How do we get a budget? How we get sponsors? And then it becomes that kind of goal setting linear process that you break it down. But along the way, I'm still listening along the way to see if there's a change in my mindset to see if I need to change this, close this, or if you and I need to do something differently. That's good. So it's the both end. So Matt, we always say the, the Spacemaker's podcast is what you do that counts. These are great ideas, but we want our listeners, our audience to do something between now next week. What's, what's our activity?

MATT BAIN: We would like them to practice reflecting on Kairos moments and a great place to start there down is just simply try to notice one each day. So just one, this is going to be, you know, call like a small act of faith, I guess, or trust because it's, it's baked, it's baked in on the assumption that these are actually credible and that if you pay attention, if you make this space in your day to day life, you will actually, life will present at least one serious credible Kairos moment. It may not be huge, it might not be like the electrified whale, but it will still be something right. It will still be something of a significance.

DANIEL SIH: And look, it may not feel significant. No, most of the Kairos moments that are important to me don't feel amazing. Sometimes, you know, definitely sometimes it's like, I have to pay attention, but just because it feels and looks normal doesn't mean it can't be your Kairos for the day. Yeah.

MATT BAIN: Well, wouldn't it be fair to say that, that often to some degree, the significance almost like comes after you've like walked the circle, right? So again, it may be after you go through the process of reflection that the true significance becomes apparent. Yeah. Yeah. But there is always a moment. Yeah. Always a moment. So good question from that is, well, like, how do I recognize these moments? So for, for prompts right off the bat, which particularly you have found them super, super helpful in terms of recognizing potential Kairos moments, it could be a strong emotion that you feel. Yeah. So again, just kind of pay attention to your gut, to your heart, a strong emotion that could be a great clue. It could be a really interesting or fascinating or fascinating idea that just grabs your attention. So like one of those kind of brain holes, you can't shake it. It could be a conversation that you've had. So you kind of reflect at the end of the day on the interactions you've had with other people. And this conversation discussion, even brief, just stands out to you against how to shake, or it could just be surprising, didn't see it coming, a really unexpected experience. That's probably going to be the most kind of one of the more obvious types, right? Because again, it's surprising, it's novel. Any of those things, any of those four could serve as great prompts for what could be a really like a chorus moment. So the first step is walking through changing your mind. So going back to your questions, start off with what happened. What did you notice? Again, the emotion, the novel experience, the conversation, or the idea. [48:47] Second big question, why? Why did it grab your attention? And what might it mean? Yeah. And after that, again, if you can, if you've got the people in your life, let them discuss it. Or if you don't, at least I journal it. So even like just getting it from your head onto paper may help you kind of, I suppose, well, the significance of it may become a lot more apparent.

DANIEL SIH: And if you can do one lana, you know, how might this change my opinions? Or what might I learn from this experience? Well, then there's your mindset, change your metanoia. [49:16] Yeah. And then you move to the second part of the circle.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, which is changing your actions. So this is where it gets a bit more concrete plan. So what's it like a realistic action plan that you can put together that's going to be responsive to this new significant insight and then act. So take the step and I imagine like we're talking about small steps to begin with two rights and not like...

DANIEL SIH: Tiny steps. Tiny steps. Tiny steps for tiny kind of Kairos.

MATT BAIN: But you're still doing something though, right? You're doing something. You're still doing something. Yeah. And then remain or become accountable. Again, assuming, ideally, that you've got someone in your life who you know you trust, let them know what you're hoping and planning to do.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. And I think this is the one I would particularly, I'd only put into place if it's something that's a big change. So sometimes, you know, you do lots of page turners and you realize, no, I need to make this shift. Yes. Yeah. If you're going to do that marathon, if you're going to, you know, change the way you interact, if you're going to make those changes around your health or fitness or money, it's worth telling others about it and actually getting some support. Yeah. Okay. That sounds good. But look, if that's too high a bar, because we are real big believers in starting small, grab a sticky note, like a bunch of sticky notes and write down one Kairos moment that you notice every day, stick them on the wall. You don't have to do the whole why and processing. Just start recognizing them. Cause once you start seeing, well, then you can start reflecting. Once you start reflecting, you can discover the meaning to them. [50:43] And once you see the meaning behind them, whether or not you can use them to both shape your decisions and guide the direction of your life. And that's when life becomes fun. Cause you start to actually see purpose and meaning in the everyday moments and make progress knowing that life is enough already and that you can make progress even if you don't know where you're heading.

MATT BAIN: You know, that's where I want to start. Good. I'll do that this week. That's a great idea. Sticky note, one per day.

DANIEL SIH: Cool. [51:10] That's really a good idea. All right. So look, if people need the whole handout with the diagram and instructions, go to spacemakers.au/s4. But what are we doing next week?

MATT BAIN: We're talking about we're talking about money, money and finances again, which would be good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very, very much so forward to it. So a really critical question. How much is enough when it comes to money? Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: It's a two part series. We're going to split the next episode into because it's such an important topic. As we head to the end of season four of the podcast.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Episode eight next time around.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. Cool. But until next time, look for Kairos moments

MATT BAIN: And maintain space.

DANIEL SIH: And make space.

NARRATOR: The Spacemakers. With Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL SIH: Big thanks to our long time sponsor, Bulk Nutrients, providing high quality supplements at affordable prices. If you're a new customer, you can enjoy 5% off your first order at bulknutrients.com.au/spacemakers.

NARRATOR: If you feel busy, overloaded and struggling to keep up, the Spacemakers Dojo is here to help. This online community is for busy professionals like you, dedicated to making space together. Dive into the Dojo to regain control of your time and make space in a supportive, accountable community. Visit spacemakers.au/Dojo to find out more.