DANIEL SIH: [00:00] Hey there, Spacemakers. I'm Daniel Sih, here with my good friend and co-host, Matt Bain. Welcome to the fourth season of The Spacemakers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life.

NARRATOR: This is The Spacemakers.

DANIEL SIH: This season, we go deeper, challenging our constant self-improvement culture and what it's doing to us. It's a pod course designed to help you step off the busy treadmill, let go of the constant need for more [30:00] and make space for a life that is truly enough. Big thanks to our long-time sponsor, Bulk Nutrients, providing high-quality supplements at affordable prices. If you're a new customer, you can enjoy 5% off your first order at bulknutrients.com.au/spacemakers.

NARRATOR: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL SIH: Hi everyone, welcome back to The Spacemakers podcast, a podcast to help you make space [00:59] for an intentional, meaningful life. My name is Daniel Sih and I'm super excited about this topic today.

We are talking about legacy and the legacy trap and maybe the dark side of legacy and what it might look like to make a dent in the universe in a positive way without being hooked or trapped or feeling like you are not enough. And this is part of a bigger pod course, which is season four, that we are exploring at the moment, which is based on an idea of enough, [01:28] all this self-help is killing me. And we're exploring the kind of quirky and interesting but very truthful idea, I believe, that we all are exhausted with more. The need to do more, to be more, to have more, to self-optimise and all this kind of well-being stuff, all this self-care stuff and self-help stuff that we're asked to do is actually putting burdens on us that make us feel even more exhausted. So what might it look like to be enough? What might it look like [01:58] to do enough? And what might it look like to make space for a life that is enough? That's what we're exploring. And so I'm here with my good friend and co-host, the man, the myth, the legacy, Matt Bain.

MATT BAIN: Hey Dan, hey everyone. Very glad to be here.

DANIEL SIH: Oh, you sound it as well.

MATT BAIN: That was my sincere tone.

DANIEL SIH: Excellent, excellent.

MATT BAIN: That was my sincere tone.

DANIEL SIH: And so we're exploring legacy. [02:24] The legacy trap we're calling it.

MATT BAIN: That's right, the legacy trap, yeah. Like I think I said at the end of last week's episode, I reckon this is a sacred cow for a lot of people. You know what I mean by sacred cow? Well, I think it's probably one of the, in terms of, if you've reached a particular station or point in life where you've already achieved a recognized high level of success across career, maybe family, maybe like you're a little bit older, in terms of legit [02:53] avenues for further excess where you can channel your ambition in such a way that other people will say that's really admirable. People talk about legacy. Makes sense. Talk about legacy. That is completely respectable. It's aspirational. It's admirable.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. And so we're going to talk about two types of people, I suppose, those who are rising to the top who aren't yet successful, but really are hungry for success. And those who maybe have actually reached a certain level of success and are fearful or terrified of losing it [03:23] and not sure how to leave a legacy and not get hooked by that. It's going to be a good episode. I want to start by talking about one of my favourite films, Mr. Holland's Opus. A good family film. Mr. Holland's Opus. I'm not sure when it was created really as a while ago now, 1990s, I think. I'm assuming.

But anyway, the main character Glenn Holland or Mr. Holland, played by Richard Dreyfus. Look, he's a talented musician. He is a composer and the legacy [03:52] that he wants to leave, the mark he wants to leave on the world is to create a great symphony, a great opus and to be a great conductor and to be known for his music. But, you know, like happens, as happens with many musicians, he actually has to pay the bills. And while he's trying to create his opus and be known, he becomes a music teacher in a local high school and pays the bills for a while.

He never wants to do the job, but there's just the reality. [04:19] Now, over the course of the movie, you see that kind of that doesn't become a temporary job. It becomes his job and his desire and dream to leave a legacy through composing starts to kind of take a backseat to a whole lot of things that just happen.

He has a child who is deaf and that's very confronting for Mr. Opus, especially because of his passion of music, trying to learn how to connect with his son. [04:46] He's confronted by the principal of the school who recognises that he just turns up to the job and just does the stuff because he has to pay the bills.

MATT BAIN: Punches the clock.

DANIEL SIH: Punches the clock. And yet, you know, he starts to realise that he actually has to turn up and be there for his students and look over a decade.

Life does get in the way and he doesn't write his opus or he doesn't complete his opus, but he does make a massive impact in the lives of hundreds or thousands of students and he actually becomes an amazing teacher and well loved. [05:15] But I love the end of the movie and sorry, this will be a movie spoiler if you haven't yet seen it. Still go watch the movie. It's worth watching. But at the end of the movie, the music program is cut and so that's his program. He is heading into retirement and, you know, he looks back on his life and he feels like it's been a complete failure. You know, he hasn't completed what he was hoping to complete. He hasn't left a mark. He hasn't, in Steve Jobs' words, you know, left the dent in the universe. [05:44] And yet he comes on his retirement day and hundreds of students from his life, from his career, have kind of assembled to say goodbye to Mr. Opus and some of the best musicians of all different ages are in an orchestra and they are, I get emotional. I really like this. They welcome him off by playing his opus and it's a beautiful movie and I think, you know, [06:13] it speaks volumes into what it looks like to need a legacy and to want a legacy to not be enough without your legacy. Whereas I think, you know, again, the moral of the movie is that Richard Dreyfus, his opus wasn't his music. It wasn't his fame. It wasn't his successful compilation. It was the life he lived and the people he shaped and the lessons he learned along the way.

MATT BAIN: I don't see you get that [06:41] touched by movies very often.

DANIEL SIH: I'm a crying type of feel good movie type of guy.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. So I do want to honour that. But one thing that is bugging me just a little is that I'm pretty sure it's Dreyfus.

DANIEL SIH: Oh, really? Alright, well, there you are. I didn't.

MATT BAIN: It's like it's spelt the same way as Grey.

DANIEL SIHL You say Dreyfus. I say Dreyfus. You say potato. I say potato. I'm probably wrong.

MATT BAIN: But I think it's D-R-E-Y-F-U-Double-S. But anyway, we can.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, I was trying to get a Thich Nhat Hahn’s name correct in the last episode. So I should have got [07:11] Dreyfus right or Dreyfus. Anyway,

MATT BAIN: I could be wrong.

DANIEL SIH: But look, the legacy trap is it's real, right? There are a lot of people and I'm going to say including myself. This one speaks to me. People who actually care about leaving a mark, who actually want to make an impact in people's lives. And yet like the catch side of that isn't that you just do good work and that isn't just that it motivates you because it is a driver, which is helpful. But when professional success is linked with your self-worth and identity, [07:40] when it becomes an attachment, which we talked about last episode, that's when it can become problematic.  Yeah?

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I think it can become problematic. And there was like, there's at least one more that we'll be exploring pretty soon.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, that sounds good.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In this episode.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. So ultimately, I mean, I suppose what we want to go is that is your legacy what you achieve? Is it that thing that's out there that if you don't have it now, you're not enough. So you have to do more. You have to act more. You have to be more.

[08:09] Or is it possible to chase the thing and still leave an impact or market in the world to actually do great things and yet pause to recognise that actually what if your legacy was right here right now and the people you love, the way you're changing and the things you learn. So let's explore.

MATT BAIN: Okay. I reckon a good place to start off like we normally do is actually, I suppose like defining our terms. So shall we talk about what exactly we mean when we use the term legacy?

DANIEL SIH: Sounds good.

MATT BAIN: Sounds good.

Okay. So [08:38] we think that really the heart of why people want to leave a legacy something behind is based on probably like two big questions that as humans as people one way or the other, we eventually always ask ourselves and that those two questions are number one, like why am I here? So like what's the purpose? Pretty big like why question? Why am I here?

And coming off the back of that, what makes a meaningful life? And those two are going to be like connected questions, obviously. And we obviously, you know, people answer these in [09:07] different ways over the course and chances are those answers change over time as well. But a lot of the time, it does come down to like one of the answers to what makes a meaningful life will have something to do with leaving something behind you.

DANIEL SIH: And that's a good thing, right? The idea that you actually want to leave a mark or put, contribute something beyond yourself.

MATT BAIN: Well, yeah. Well, look, [09:31] I mean, not that I want to take like a big tangent here, but I think it's like usually a good thing certainly can be a good thing.

But I'm still really curious as to what's driving it. Because I know like on the one hand, I think it was like Ed Catmul, who was the co-founder of Pixar, he had this quote about people being meek, sorry, people being meaning making creatures, right?

DANIEL SIHL People being meercats.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. People being

DANIEL SIH: You paid me out about Dreyfus!

MATT BAIN: People being meercat making machines. No, people being meaning making creatures, right? [10:00] So, so I get that. I get that. But I also, I also relate to, and this came out as some research that you pointed me to, a couple of researchers who specialised in legacy, Elizabeth Hunter and Graham Rowles. So they looked at, again, like this whole topic of legacy and they're one of their big answers as to why people feel compelled to leave a legacy isn't just because we're meaning making machines, but it's also got to do with our mortality. [10:29] So this idea that I know I'm alive, and I know I've got this capacity to love, to build relationships, to create, you know, so I'm aware of all that. And I know with that, coupled with that, I've got this drive to make some meaning. But at the same time, eventually, I can't ignore or deny the fact that I'm going to die. So what happens against those relationships, the meaning to the great art, all that kind of stuff after that?

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, okay. So not only do we want to make meaning and not only do we care about, [10:57] I suppose, impacting the world in meaningful ways, we also want to leave a mark. We want to say I was here.

I remember Ann-Laure Lamont talks about legacy and she says it's essentially, it's about wanting to say I was here. And that seems to be really important, particularly for some of us.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, which, yeah, which still puzzles me, assuming that you believe that it's life and then death and nothing else. Because like, you aren't going to know afterwards if you believe that death is the end, you aren't going to know [11:27] whether anyone else remembers you.

DANIEL SIH: That's funny, but I get it. I mean, I've got to say personally, like if I look at, you know, the different hooks, I'm, pleasure doesn't really appeal to me too much, but like legacy, honour, influence does. I care very much about

MATT BAIN: World domination.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, world domination. No, no, but I want to impact people's lives. And I think a lot of that’s really positive, you know I want to make a contribution, I work hard. I read, I study, I learn because I actually want to make a mark that [11:55] has a positive contribution in people's lives to help them think, to make space or whatever, you know, other aspects of legacy I feel compelled to leave. I think that's a good thing, but a good thing can become a bad thing if it self defines you. And if you're not enough without it, I think that's probably the bit we want to talk about.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. And go about like to this point, probably fair to say you want to say like driven by again, death either.

DANIEL SIH: What, the need to die.

MATT BAINL [12:23] The need to like to leave something that's going to kind of transcend your temporary existence. Like that's not really you either.

DANIEL SIH: I don't know. I'd have to think about it.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. Well, there probably is part of that though. There probably is about it. There probably is a sense of, yeah, I was here. You know, and I want to leave a mark that's beyond myself. I think that probably is part of it.

MATT BAIN: Interesting. Okay. Well, see, see how you vibe with this specific quote. Again, this is from those two researchers, Elizabeth Hunter and Graham Rowles that I mentioned before. [12:52] They write, few of us are comfortable with the idea that we live, we die and that is it. We want to believe that there is a purpose in life and that we will make a mark of some kind, perhaps only in the memories of our descendants, but a mark nonetheless. We were here, we thought, we loved, we created. This is the fertile ground from which the desire for legacy sprouts.

DANIEL SIH: So I think it summarises that pretty well. I mean, even if you accept that you are [13:16] temporary and finite, you still want to make an impact in some way.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Well, all the more so. I think, yeah, like that's, yeah, but yeah, all the more so, I think they're saying because you realise you're temporary, you're finite and because, particularly if you think the death is the end.

DANIEL SIH: And there's meaning to be had in life. Then you want to leave an impact. So you don't, you don't have that.

MATT BAIN: Look, you know, I was trying to, I mean, I was trying to kind of make it more personal, more personal by saying Matt was here, Matt thought, Matt loved, Matt created.

DANIEL SIH: [13:46] You don't care. You don't care.

MATT BAIN: Well, I believe, like to be fair, I believe in the life there, like, so I believe like in life eternal rights. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I guess there's that, which I know you do too. So, yeah. So, so the death part, I suppose, like makes less sense to me. You know what I mean.

DANIEL SIH: Huh. Yeah. I wonder if it's personality based as well.

MATT BAIN: Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, they're probably, probably.

DANIEL SIH: Interesting. All right. Well, then this podcast is for people like me, everyone like Matt. Why don't you just go off and [14:14] enjoy another movie?

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Yeah. Just want to feel good one. So quickly here's again, like Hunter and Rowles, they came up, like they categorised three different types of legacies.

DANIEL SIH: So actually we want to define what type we're talking about.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's right. So they talk about a relational legacy. So this is really, as we've already kind of hinted at. So this is, well, my legacy is I'm going to be a great father. I'll be a great grandfather. [14:39] I want to have, like, my legacy will be people will remember the good, social, emotional connections.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. So that's relational legacy. You want to be remembered and loved by people in your life.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like usually a couple of generations down. And then there's material legacy. And this is really more about if you like, you know, wealth and resources.

So I want to be someone who again, my grandchildren would have kind of like, I suppose benefited, maybe like gotten like a leg up to some degree [15:08] via some of the intergenerational wealth that I may leave them.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. And I look, I read Hunter and Rowles, like the journal article, and they have quotes from different people they interviewed. And it wasn't necessarily just like financial wealth, but it could be heirlooms and meaningful material things that they passed down that allow them to be remembered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it [15:31] was a Harry Potter thing, right? You know, Voldemort and his, no anyway, I'm going on a different tangent.

MATT BAIN: Another feelgood movie.

DANIEL SIH: What's the next one? Yeah cut your soul into different

MATT BAIN: Value's legacy. Value's legacy. So this one also makes sense. And a lot of people could relate to it.

This is when again, like this way of life, whether it's a religion or an ethos, or a like, you know, particular like morality or values, it's important for me to kind of see this perpetuated to kind of exist within my loved ones after I after I die as well.

DANIEL SIH: [15:59] Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So they marked three, but you know, the fourth one we would say is professional legacy,

MATT BAIN: Professional legacy

DANIEL SIH: Which is wanting to make an impact through what you do. Yeah. Well, what you do, the business you create, the book you create, hopefully the podcast episodes that listen to the whole three people that listen to this. No, but, but you actually want to make a dent in the universe as Steve Jobs famously said, through your professional life and career, [16:25] and you kind of mark the value of your life largely based on whether you or not you'd left that mark.

And so we particularly want to hone in on professional legacy because we kind of feel like that's potentially the most unhelpful hook and the one that is most common in our circles.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And the two probably quite obvious reasons. Number one, going back to the last episode, actually achieving that is something that is beyond my control. I can influence it, but it's absolutely beyond my [16:54] control. So again, if I kind of get my, my sense of self worth and well being fixated on being able to definitely leave that mark, it's futile in that regard. And secondly, there's, there's the opportunity cost. So there's the fact that I could be so kind of again, fixated, consumed, preoccupied with, you know, building the next iPhone, iPod equivalent that I miss the people that are already in my life, perhaps the relationships, like the good things that are already there that I could enjoy [17:22] and should be contributing to. Because again, I'm so preoccupied with making sure that my legacy is somehow going to be intact.

DANIEL SIH: And I think the other thing is just a mugs game. Like you can never be successful enough. I mean, you know, like I didn't have a book, I get a book, well was that enough? Well, no, it's not a best selling book.

Well, if it's a best selling book, is it an international best seller? And then it did it become a movie. And like, you know what I mean? Like when you chase professional success and when you chase a professional mark, you're always comparing with someone who's gone further and there's always the next step. [17:50] And in fact, usually once you reach that next pinnacle, well, then you actually see the possibility for actually taking that next step.

And if you define your happiness, your health and your wellbeing or your value by achieving that next thing, well, then it's always in the future, which is a miserable way to live. I think that's what I also see in the terms of professional legacy. [18:10] So before we go into some solutions and maybe talk about ideas, about how we might practically tackle the dark side of leaving a legacy, recognising that, you know, we're not saying that leaving a legacy is a bad thing or that having a great career is a bad thing.

In fact, I think those things are great, but it's the dark side we want to tackle so that you can actually leave a mark in a positive way.

MATT BAIN: So when it becomes like again, an unhealthy attachment.

DANIEL SIH: When it becomes an unhealthy attachment, [18:36] like we talked about last episode, when it becomes the functional master of your heart or has ultimate meaning. So it's worth pausing and stopping and asking questions, particularly if you feel like you're perpetually unhappy or dissatisfied, and that that dissatisfaction doesn't just drive you to do more, but it actually makes you feel like you have to have more, you have to do more, you have to want more in order to be enough, which is the topic of today. It's worth asking these questions. So why do I need to leave a legacy? [19:05] What's the purpose? Why?

MATT BAIN: I feel like I should be asking you that.

DANIEL SIH: You should be. Do you want to ask me these questions? Will I really be remembered? And does it matter? Am I sacrificing the right things for this legacy? And I suppose when is it all enough? You know, we've talked a lot about death on this cheery podcast season, but look, one of [19:31] a close friend of mine passed away and it made me really think about success. I wrote a blog post on it from death to the second mountain. And one of the things I was thinking about is how success really is a mugs game, that it is a never ending chase towards something. And I was thinking about people who will be more successful in me than life, you know, like people like John Travolta. I once said to my kids something about, I mentioned John Travolta and they're like, who? I'm like, well, of course they don't know John Travolta. He's a has been, you know,

MATT BAIN: Well clearly they haven’t seen Pulp Fiction.

DANIEL SIH: [19:59] I know, but hey, that was the nineties, right? And then you flip it another 20 years, another 20 years. And this is only like my kids generation or what will happen in two generations, three generations. I mean, even famous people will be footnotes in history. And that's not even looking at humanity from a cosmic perspective. So there is a point where, you know, how valuable is leaving a dent in the universe and how much is it costing you for that dream? [20:28] Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't pursue meaningful, valuable, big goals. I'm a big believer in that. But how much do you attach your worth to it?

And that's probably when you get caught in the not enough trap.

[20:55] All right, so Matt, let's dive into the legacy trap further. And this kind of episode came out of a book by Arthur Brooks, Strength to Strength which you and I really like, but it's a confronting book, right? Do you want to talk about some of what stood out?

MATT BAIN: It is bracing, to be fair. And I know we referenced it like a fair bit last last season as well. So it's obviously had like a bigger, a big influence on our thinking. So he writes a lot about [21:18] what he calls professional decline, which we're kind of bundling up with the legacy trap. And to be fair, he's writing, I think, predominantly like to an audience who were probably already established or already found some measure of professional recognised professional success. But the important thing for us here, and our audience is that this applies to people who are currently striving and chasing that success, even if they don't feel that they've actually achieved that as yet.

DANIEL SIH: [21:42] Well, I think that's why I found it confronting because you're writing, you're reading a book from the perspective of people who have already made it.

MATT BAIN: You already kind of made it, mate. You're doing okay.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, but I'd like to make it. And actually, you know, it's nothing like actually seeing, oh, this is the reality of the mountain you're trying to climb.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, sure.

DANIEL SIH: I think it was quite helpful.

MATT BAIN: So, like you said, bracing slash confronting and he comes out of the gate swinging. And this is like one of those lines that grabbed you, you grabbed me. I'm sure it grabbed a lot of people. So I'll quote it, right? So [22:12] his first chapter, his first chapter is literally entitled, Your professional decline is coming much sooner than you think.

DANIEL SIH: He  doesn't mean it's words.

MATT BAIN: No, your professional decline is coming much sooner than you think. Then you think. So again, like he kind of speaks to what you could call like the underbelly of success again, for people who have made it. And usually those people who are a little bit kind of further along the path of age and career. [22:39] And he had this really fascinating quote. So, and again, he's got like a pretty good research background as well. So I trust him when it comes to the stuff that he sites, the stats that he sites. He said that based on his reading of the research and the data, only about 20% of people who are surveyed say that they fear dying. Yeah. Dying only 20%. Surprisingly, it's a poor number. But get this, many, many of us, probably most of us again, who have achieved some level of [23:07] professional success are terrified at the idea of failing, becoming irrelevant or losing the kind of influence or recognition that unfortunately, if you're too attached to it, can start to define you.

DANIEL SIH: We’re funny, aren't we? Like, you know, a huge proportion of people are scared of public speaking, but not death. And again, it sounds like a big proportion of people are scared of losing their professional career or failing in their career. Probably more than that. Which is interesting.

MATT BAIN: [23:36] So he calls it the strivers curse, which again, really is interesting if you kind of consider it. Because if to some degree, if fear of failure was part of the fuel, like that drives you to success, like the cruel irony is, is that once you've achieved that success, I don't know how long you can kind of like enjoy it for, before a new fear comes along and starts to perhaps like serve as a new kind of propulsive fuel. And that is, man, I'm here and now it's mine to lose. Yeah.

DANIEL SIH: [24:04] I was on Jaeman Frazer's podcast. He runs The Insecurity Project. And his big thing is that insecurity is real, it's curable. And it really impacts people, particularly who chase professionalism. And one of the things in his book, which is fascinating, is he said that actually if you're insecure, meaning you don't have a good self-esteem, you have anxiety or a sense of, I don't know, what do we call it?

MATT BAIN: Impostors.

DANIEL SIH: Impostor syndrome, that kind of thing. [24:32] He says people who are insecure tend to actually go up the professional ranks faster in their 20s and 30s, because they're so driven to prove themselves. But it's out of an unhealthy insecurity. But then they hit their 40s and 50s, they become disastrous because they actually reach the top and actually hit the top. And if your self-worth is defined by your achievement, you quickly realise how miserable it is. And then just fearful of losing it. So you become the type of boss that is insecure [25:00] and controls everything.

So I found that fascinating. It's the same idea, I think, that why are we chasing success, what's going on inside of us as we do. And how much are we really linking our value to what we achieve.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah, so Brooks goes on, and again, I think we covered this in a lot more detail in the last season, but he goes on to say that really age, like time is not on your side, professionally. [25:27] So that decline that he talked about, again, will come on fairly rapidly. And to some degree, there's really nothing that you can do about it because you will not have the same energy that you had when you were younger. You will not have the same degree of like energy and spontaneity and creative inspiration and ideas that chances are your younger colleagues have. So your ideas will no longer like set the pace. They won't be like the arctic anymore. And of course, like your IQ, to some degree. [25:50] And I don't think it was fluid intelligence. It was the other intelligence.

DANIEL SIH: Consolidated.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, I know. Yes. So yes. So it's the fluid intelligence that starts to drop off a cliff. But your consolidated intelligence can come to the fore.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, so there’s things that are beneficial when you get older. But in terms of like maintaining professional success, I mean, the bottom line is at some time, at some point in the future, you won't be successful anymore. You won't be known. You won't be remembered. As cheerful as that is, it's actually worth meditating on, which we're going to talk about at the end. [26:20] Because if you confront that reality early enough, well, then you can actually enjoy success without having to have success.

You can say, actually, what I have now is enough, even though I'm going to chase something more. And I think that's a healthy way to be.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

DANIEL SIH: I do like a quote from Will Smith. Actually do you have in front of you?

MATT BAIN: I do.

DANIEL SIH: This is great quote from

MATT BAIN: Not Will Smith, but I got his quote.

DANIEL SIH: Great quote from Will Smith. [26:46] I read his autobiography, which is a ripper, by the way. It was written with Mark Manson, who wrote The Subtle Art of Not Giving.

MATT BAIN: Oh I did not know that.

DANIEL SIH: Anyway, and he says, becoming famous is about as much fun as the material world has to offer. Being famous, a bit of a mixed bag, but fading famous sucks ass.

So that kind of summarises it. Thanks, Will Smith.

Hey, so Matt, we've talked a bit about this [27:13] in preparation for this episode. And you had an interesting take on legacy, which I found really interesting. From Dosga … Dos Dowesky, there, I've been practicing. Go for it.

MATT BAIN: Dreyfus, Dreyfus.

DANIEL SIH: I know, I can't even say Dreyfus. How am I meant to say a Russian like author from the 1800s? Anyway, go for it.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah. So maybe this kind of reflects a difference between you and I in terms of how we like.

DANIEL SIH: Well, I watched Dreyfus and you read Dostoevsky.

MATT BAIN: No, it's more like so. [27:43] So this is like this is this is probably more of a temptation when it comes to me like trying to strive for any kind of professional legacy isn't a reason, a darker reason, a trap that may be fuelling it. Anyway, when I when I read the Brothers of Karamazov, he's like classic one of his many classic novels, like this paragraph really jumped out to me. And I record it when you and I were talking about legacy. Here's one of his characters say, the more I love humanity in general, the less I love man in particular. [28:09] In my dreams, I've often come to make plans for the service of humanity. And perhaps I might actually face crucifixion if it was suddenly necessary. Yet I am incapable of living in the same room with anyone for two days together.

So this to me like kind of it does capture a shadow side of the quest for professional legacy. And that is a can serve as a distraction or even like more a dodge [28:37] from the often really unglamorous but necessary, usually people and people related responsibilities that all of us have in day to day life. So like very simply, it's kind of easier to love the idea of humanity and it's easier to love the idea of serving humanity rather than that then have to deal with the flesh and blood individual who's right there that you have some degree of responsibility.

DANIEL SIH: OK, so it's easier to care for humanity as a whole or as a concept.

MATT BAIN: As a concept. It's an abstract idea.

DANIEL SIH: [29:07] But then be shitty to your neighbour.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so not quite as classy, but but the American journalist and author P. J. O'Rourke, he also had like another quote about this that leapt out to me. He wrote, everybody wants to save the earth. Nobody wants to help mum do the dishes. I think that's that's so true because it sounds noble, right? It sounds noble. It sounds virtuous of like making the world a better place, serve humanity. Look after future generations, you know, protect the environment. And that's all like that is all well and good and true. [29:36]

DANIEL SIH: I mean, it is. It is important right.

MATT BAIN: It is. It is. But it's probably harder for most of us. A lot of us actually love the actual real people in front of us and by our sides in all their ordinariness and their imperfection. Yeah, because that's where my perfection rubs up against your imperfection. And sometimes that causes a lot of friction.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, so surely it's a both and right. If you're someone who says I care for humanity, I care for about kindness. It's a great value of mine, right? You would also want to predominantly demonstrate kindness at home. Do the dishes and not be a jerk. And then your message has the meaning, but you don't want to be one of those people that's leaving a legacy to tell the whole world that they should be radically kind. And then be a jerk at home.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's right. That's right. So [30:25] on that, like a couple of like examples that we thought of of how this can play out. So you work long, long, long hours like to create this kind of a great life for your family. But then your children barely see you and your partner knows less about your inner life than some of your colleagues at work. Like that's a classic example.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. Should we really do this? Might we lose our audience and, you know, all of our family?

MATT BAIN: Or, you know, like you volunteer on boards and you get loads of affirmations from colleagues about your kindness, [30:54] but you haven't actually visited your parents in that nursing home for the past like three months. Yeah. Or maybe you're out, you know, snapping photos of dinner to put on Instagram. This great, fantastic meal and like trying to kind of, I suppose, make an impression to your thousands of followers about how wonderful your night out is. But all that time, your partner sitting across from you, feeling completely neglected and ignored.

DANIEL SIH: I've only got 10 followers, so it wouldn't be a problem. But it's so true, isn't it? Right. So look, we can easily [31:23] point out the hypocrisy. We see it in ourselves as well, right? I mean, it’s the hardest thing, to actually want to be a moral, kind, thoughtful person or someone who actually makes a mark. I suppose what we're saying is don't let it be a distraction. Don't don't make the thing out there that brings happiness that gives you meaning and significance. Don't make it so big and so important that you deny the very day, everyday ordinary realities of being a good human.

MATT BAIN: [31:51] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, the only thing that I add to that is like, don't let it be a dodge.

DANIEL SIH: And don't let it be a dodge.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, it's one thing for it to be distraction. It's another thing to actually be used as a dodge.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, that makes sense.

MATT BAIN: I can't be here right now. Cause, you know, I'm out there, I don't know, like dragging dolphins or whales off beaches. So like for the next 12 months, going around the world, I'm really, really sorry.

DANIEL SIH: I can see you doing that, Matt. I can see you doing it.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Wouldn't be my first whale rodeo.

DANIEL SIH: So we're going to get super practical in a minute like we always do. And yes, provide [32:21] two really practical ideas and solutions, I suppose, to how you might tackle legacy if you're kind of trying to get success and don't yet have it and are miserable because it's in the future or whether you reach it. And as Arthur Brooks says, you feel miserable and fearful and insecure because you might lose it. So why don't we pause for a moment, have some silence and just reflect on what stands out to you.

[33:13] Hey, hopefully that moment of silence was reflective and helpful. But let's get practical because, you know, it's what you do that counts. We really care about applying these ideas so that you can walk away feeling at the end of this pod course that actually, oh, I don't have such an inner drive to do more, to have more, to want more. I feel like what I have is enough. That's what we want, right?

MATT BAIN: That's what we want.

DANIEL SIH: So we've been going through the aware framework. We won't go through the framework again. Look at [33:42] past episodes if you want more details. But two of the acrostic terms, the R is for relinquish. Relinquish. A is for acceptance.

MATT BAIN: That's right. That's right. So relinquish, otherwise known as letting go. And like you said, the A for acceptance. So this is in a very similar vein to last episode's exercises.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, we were talking about attachments and gave practical exercises to let go of the things that you love in a way that is unhelpful.

MATT BAIN: That's right. So we've got [34:12] two suggested exercises. The first is going to be particularly for people who perhaps feel they're like, I guess, on the rise. So they still haven't attained the level of professional success slash legacy that they would ideally like. And the second one is for, you know, the, I guess, like the lucky few who may be sitting there here and now. So we'll do the first one. And we've called this, what do you have right now? So again, this is for people who are striving, who want to be more successful [34:41] with the risks that we've already talked about that perhaps they are so preoccupied with striving and chasing for that success slash legacy that they're kind of like they're immune. They're a little bit kind of blinded to the good things, the good opportunities that are already surrounding them.

DANIEL SIH: Oh it’s totally where I, you know, that that's my that is my default. I'll go to the future. I see the vision. I want the vision. I'll work hard for the vision. The hard thing is pausing for long enough to realise that happiness is found in the here and now.

MATT BAIN: [35:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why it's called the present.

DANIEL SIH: The present. So that's why we're calling it. What do you have right now?

MATT BAIN: OK, so, so, so, look, I really like this quote from again, Leonard Cohen. Twice in two.

DANIEL SIH: Oh, not Leonard again.

MATT BAIN: Twice in two episodes again, like, and this, this, this was penned, this was penned after his time doing, I think, five or six years in a Zen monastery, monastery. So he wrote this right.

DANIEL SIH: With his own blood.

MATT BAIN: Yes. [35:39] This is what he wrote. Get this. OK, so this is a little bit cryptic. So I'll say nice and slow. Only one thing made him happy. And now that it was gone, everything made him happy.

Only one thing made him happy. And now that it was gone, everything made him happy.

In other words, you can be so fixated when you're striving and chasing particularly professional success that you think, man, if I could just get this one thing, this one thing, if I could just like tick this one thing off, achieve this one thing, [36:09] make this mark, have this impression, then I'll be happy. Then then I'll be happy. Or maybe you've already got it and you think, well, as long as I've got this one thing, as long as I'm sitting here, I will be happy. And the risk is you are so preoccupied with that one particular thing, whether it's striving for it or maintaining it. That again, it blinds you to some degree of all the other good stuff, all the other good opportunities, whether it be relationships or other professional, I suppose, avenues, you know, all [36:37] that value piece that we talked about before.

DANIEL SIH: Just the simple things that are around you. The appreciation gratitude piece.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah. And it may not be until either that one thing is wrested away from you or you voluntarily like lay it down. Either way, suddenly this vista opens up in front of you of all these other things that you've already got. You don't have to even strive for, but you've already got that you can enjoy.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, nice. OK, I'm going to read it again. So I sound smart now. So only one thing made him happy and now that it was gone, everything [37:07] made him happy. So that makes sense. If you never attain, you know, if you never attain that dream of becoming the CEO or to have never attain the dream of having that book published or raising the perfect family, you know, getting that following, I don't know, achieving that success. If you let that one thing down that made you happy, well, then you can find happiness everywhere. [37:35] Just in all the simple, everyday things, the people, you know, yeah, nature, just reading a good book.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, there is bound to be something meaningful. Like, so not just try it, but actually meaningful in your life at least one other avenue of happiness and fulfillment.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. So what does that look like practically then? So how do you take, you know, this cryptic, Leonard Cohen quote, somewhat cryptic and actually find joy in the present? Without necessarily having to give up ambition.

MATT BAIN: [38:04] Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. Yeah. So so again, this is particularly kind of targeted to people who are currently striving. So I guess the first thing is, you know, actually visual or first of all, reflect, reflect on whether you are too preoccupied, too invested in striving after a particular professional success. So again, nothing wrong with aspiring to that, but you've got to ask yourself, am I so invested in this that again, I'm fusing, I'm [38:32] hooking my sense of like well-being and identity on this thing being achieved.

Yeah. So it may be like you said before, you know, becoming like a better manager or CEO, it may be like actually getting some, some creative work recognised or some professional standing based on your creative output. It might be like raising the kind of the perfect family. It might be reaching the much cherished financial independence by the time you're 40 or 50, you know, but you've got to be honest with yourself, rigorous with your self assessment, have I invested [39:00] too much again, too much of my identity and sense of well-being in the pursuit of this particular thing?

So name that up first. Secondly, if you decide that you have or that you are, then you need to ask yourself, OK, what is this coming at the opportunity cost of? What else in my life am I currently a little bit kind of blind to? Whether that's people, recreational pursuits, again, like the talking about, I guess, like, you know, propagating values or that kind of stuff. I've talked about that before in terms of another kind of legacy as well. What is something else that [39:30] is currently, you know, part of my life within my my grasp, but I'm not realising its potential because I'm so preoccupied chasing this probably professional legacy goal over here.

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, I think of the Dan and Chip Heath kind of exercise from Decisive, where they asked the question, you know, if you couldn't have that thing that you want, if that option was taken off the table, what would you do? But I still that that's more about decision making. [39:57] But I think that type of question is really helpful when it comes to legacy. And if I never achieved this, or if I lost the thing that I have, where do I find meaning, purpose, happiness? Where do I invest my time? What am I missing right now? Because I'm so fixated on that thing.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah. With with the caveat, again, like maybe a little bit distinct from from that original exercise, [40:23] I'm arguing that it's actually right there already.

DANIEL SIH: Well, yeah, of course, it's right there right now. It's just that you're not seeing. I agree with it. So you're trying to broaden the scorecard of your life and look around or move the spotlight around as Dan and Chip Heath say to actually see what you have right now that you are neglecting. Because of that pursuit of more. And that's the heartbeat of enough.

The other thing you might do is go back to our past episode, the one from last week and look at the activity where you open up your hands and intentionally [40:51] detach or let go of the thing that you want, not necessarily to stop having it, but to actually remove the unhealthy connection to it so that you can open up your eyes and see the possibility of the joy and purpose right here and right now and the people you love in the places you live in, in the simple things around you. So that's the first activity, which we call what do you have right now?

[41:18] Maybe just shift your eyes, shift your perspectives and pay attention to the present. Cool. The second activity is even more cheerful. I really, really like this activity. This is something I do every quarter. I do it four times a year. And it is it sounds depressing. So I'm going to put it out there straight away, but it's not. I think it's really life giving. It's a death to success meditation. And it comes from Arthur Brooks from Strength to Strength.

[41:46] He got a lot of critique and criticism from like about this activity. And it sounds a bit macabre, but honestly, it is super helpful if you're someone like me who has a tiny bit of success, success or who wants success. And who can see the value in and you can see the value in giving it up pre-emptively rather than having it taken away. [42:12] So this is adapted from a Buddhist Maranasati or death contemplation activity. Again, according to Arthur Brooks, in monasteries in Southeast Asia, places like Thailand or Sri Lanka, you'll see a whole lot of body photos of decaying bodies at different stages of their decay.

Now, this does sound macabre, right? And apparently what monks meditate on is they look at these various photos [42:42] and they actually meditate on what is my life like when I die. And then this is me as my body declines. This is me as a skeleton.

This is me when I literally am non-existent anymore. And by exposing themselves to images and ideas of their mortality, they actually come to terms with death and the fear of death. And therefore they can live more fully, more richly without fear. It's a bit like exposure therapy [43:10] in psychology. You know, people are exposed to spiders or heights. And actually, if you're terrified of those things, will then slow, carefully graded exposure to those things can make you less fearful and less afraid. And therefore make you more able to be comfortable. Maybe not eating spiders, but seeing a spider. All right. So it's the same idea, right?

But but what Brooks does is he takes that concept from Buddhist monasteries in Sri Lanka and says, well, [43:38] we may not need to do that or it may not be as helpful to do it for physical death. But a lot of us are terrified of the death of success or the death of career.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that decline and professional decline we were talking about before.

DANIEL SIH: So what if we were to do that same imagery exercise and do it over nine stages where we literally meditate on the death of our career? I found it super helpful. It's helped me to give up the need to [44:06] have any sense of success in what I do and helped me to pursue things with excellence and things that matter without that hookiness of being defined by them.

And this is why I do it every three months, as suggested in From Strength to Strength. So I'll read these out. And Arthur Brooks suggests you take a slow breath and close your eyes [44:34] and imagine these stages unfolding in your life. Step one, my competence begins to decline. Step two, those close to me notice I'm not as sharp as I once was. Step three, others receive the attention I used to receive. Step four, I decrease my workload and step back from the activities I once did with ease. Step five, [45:04] I am no longer able to work. Step six, many people I meet no longer recognise me or know what I once did. Step seven, I am still alive, but professionally, I am no one. Step eight, I lose the ability to communicate my thoughts and ideas. And step nine, I am gone and I'm no longer remembered for my accomplishments. [45:35] And what Brooks suggests is we imagine ourselves going through these steps.

We sit with that truth. We let the fear or the anxiety or the uncomfortability surface and then we let it pass. And then when we look at our declining professional success, when we give up our significance, when we give up our need to make an impact or to leave a dent in the universe, it actually gives us the freedom [46:05] to simply make a small impact with what we have now without having to cling to it or need it or want it. And ironically, that can lead us to living a better, freer, more successful life. In a healthy way.

MATT BAIN: Yeah. And if you couldn't, it wouldn't matter.

DANIEL SIH: And if you couldn't, it wouldn't matter because you are enough. Look, if you're interested in the details of, let's say, this Death to Success meditation by Arthur Brooks, go to our [46:35] toolkit for podcast season four, which is at spacemakers.au/S4r. But look, let's pause for a moment. It's a bit of a sombre way to finish a podcast, but I actually think we're talking about deep stuff. And there's even if you disagree with Brooks, and even if you think this isn't an exercise for you, I think there's value in pausing to reflect on your own professional success and your professional decline [47:04] and to be OK with it and to actually allow that to help you live in the moment and to love deeply and to have a healthy perspective on what matters right now. I think if you have that perspective that you are loved and that you can love, your respective of what you achieve, well, then there's a freedom and a lightness and a joy that comes from that, actually, an ability to actually make a contribution not because you have to, but because you want to. [47:33] And it actually doesn't matter if it doesn't work, you can still try. Look, this has been a deep episode and a heavy episode, but hopefully really valuable. I think if we can reflect and think deeply about our lives, it can actually make a huge difference.

MATT BAIN: Yeah, agreed. And I rather it, you know, heavy and deep as opposed to shallow and light. Wow that was profound.

DANIEL SIH: We should do light. We should do light and heavy next time. [48:02] So next week we are kind of, I don't know if we're lightening it up a bit. We probably are. But we're going to talk about the challenge of setting goals. And we're going to talk about Kairos moments, which is one of my favourite topics, I’ve YouTube’d on it a lot. How funky and young do I sound?

MATT BAIN: You are the Kairos guy.

DANIEL SIH: Kairos being a moment in time, a Greek word that helps us look for moments of significance and get out of the goal setting grind and actually experience [48:32] serendipitous, surprising moments in the everyday. It's going to be great. I'm really looking forward to it.

MATT BAIN: That's a promise. Serendipitous, surprising moments in the everyday. I look forward to it.

DANIEL SIH: I know. It's going to be excellent. But next week we are going to take it up a notch or change it up a bit. We're going to talk about Kairos moments, the value of looking for significant moments in time, things that might be surprising or spontaneous and how they can actually guide and shape us in really interesting ways, even if you're not set on a linear goal. [49:02] Some of my favourite, like it's one of my favourite topics, I’ve spoken on YouTube about it a bit. I'm really looking forward to talking about Kairos moments for this podcast and to help people look for those moments of significance that can transform their life.

MATT BAIN: That's like four S's. We had surprising, we had significant, we had serendipitous and we had

DANIEL SIH: Stupendously fantastic.

MATT BAIN: Another one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All the S's.

DANIEL SIH: It's going to be fantastic on the Spacemakers podcast. [49:31] Hope you've enjoyed this episode, but until next time, make space.

MATT BAIN: See you.

NARRATOR: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

DANIEL SIH: Big thanks to our longtime sponsor, Bulk Nutrients, providing high quality supplements at affordable prices. If you're a new customer, you can enjoy 5% off your first order at bulknutrients.com .au/spacemakers.

NARRATOR: If you feel busy, overloaded and struggling to keep up, the Spacemakers Dojo is here to help. This online community is for busy professionals like you, dedicated to making space together. Dive into the Dojo to regain control of your time and make space in a supportive, accountable community. Visit spacemakers.au/dojo to find out more.