DANIEL SIH: [00:01] Hey there, Spacemakers. I'm Daniel Sih, here with my good friend and co-host, Matt Bain. Welcome to the fourth season of The Spacemakers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life.

 

NARRATOR: This is The Spacemakers.

 

DANIEL SIH: This season, we go deeper, challenging our constant self-improvement culture and what it's doing to us. It's a podcast designed to help you step off the busy treadmill, let go of the constant need for more, [00:30] and make space for a life that is truly enough. This episode is sponsored by The Spacemakers Dojo, our much-loved online community helping busy professionals make space alongside others. For a limited time, get 12 months for the price of six with code podcast25, visit spacemakers.au forward slash dojo. Hopefully I'll see you there.

 

NARRATOR: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

 

DANIEL SIH: [01:00] Hi everyone, this is Daniel Sih. Welcome back to The Spacemakers podcast, a podcast to help you make space for an intentional, meaningful life. And I want to start with a famous Aesop Fable called The Man, The Boy and The Donkey. And it speaks volumes about what it means to truly live a life that is enough. So once upon a time there was a man and a boy and a donkey walking to a market. And as they passed through the first village, well, the people laughed at them and said, [01:30] oh, look at them. There's a perfectly good donkey and neither of them are riding it. Well, you know, feeling a bit embarrassed, the boy got on the donkey. They kept going on a few miles further and then a group of women saw these two people, the boy on his donkey and the father beside him and they shook their heads and muttered, oh, what a selfish child riding a donkey while his poor father walks. So embarrassed, the boy got off the donkey and the father rode instead.

 

[01:58] Well, they enter the next village on the way to the market and there was another group of people who muttered in disapproval. Imagine that the father rides the donkey while the poor young boy has to struggle along the road. Well, trying to avoid judgment, both the father and boy now jumped onto the donkey. Well, they got closer to the market and the people started to gasp, oh, that poor [02:23] animal, how cruel, there's a father and a son on this poor donkey carrying both of them. And they threw pebbles and the voices rose in protest. So desperate to silence the criticism, the father and the boy got off the donkey and tied its legs together, put it on a pole and carried the donkey towards the market themselves. Well, unfortunately, as they crossed the bridge towards the market, the little boy lost his grip [02:50] and the poor donkey and the pole fell off the bridge, landed in the river and disappeared, never to be seen again.

 

There was a wise old man who'd been following the man and his son the whole way. And he simply said, please all and you will please none. Please all and you will please none. Wise words.

 

Although I have to admit, I feel sorry for the donkey. So how does this speak to our season four finale, [03:19] which is a podcast, which is about helping you make space for a life that is truly enough. And we want to talk about how seeking approval from others and how connecting with relationships can actually cause us to feel miserable if we get hooked or if we don't know how to approach relationships in a healthy, meaningful way. In fact, the root of our exhaustion for many of us isn't necessarily our workload, but the emotional turmoil we experience managing what people think about us, [03:49] trying to be admired, accepted and appreciated, trying to keep everybody happy, replaying conversations in our head, shifting our actions to keep the peace, trying to be enough in the eyes of others, and it can be exhausting.

 

So if you tie your sense of self to what other people think about you or what you think other people are thinking and you start worrying about what they're thinking about, [04:16] well then you live like the man and the boy, always adjusting, striving, always doing more and never feeling like you're quite enough. And that's what we want to talk about in this episode. We're going to talk about the wonder of relationships, how to love people without letting their opinions define us. We're going to talk about how to stay open and interdependent without getting caught in the trap of approval chasing. [04:41] And we're going to talk about how to accept the influence of people in our lives in a healthy, space-filled way.

 

We're going to talk about Mel Robbins' Let Them Theory, both what we like and critique about her theory and her very best-selling book. And we'll offer some personal reflections as we wrap up this podcast season to share what we've found helpful. We're Matt and I helping, learning to be enough, and we'll summarize and let you know what season five might look lik[05:10] e. All right, but before we dive in, I'm here with my co-host, the one and only, the co-host with the most, Matt Bain. Welcome.

 

MATT BAIN: Thanks, Dan. It's great to be here. You mentioned a bunch of stuff that you want to talk about. I want to add to that list. I want to talk about the fact that in these stories, those old guys always like, why do they drop their pearls of wisdom, their little pithy summaries, like, go or say to the very end after it's too late, huh? He could have, h[05:29] e could have piped up and shared that right at the very start.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, until the poor donkey died and fell down the river.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's a lot of donkey blood on his hands the way I see it.

 

DANIEL SIH: Oh, I like it. Hey, we've made it to the last episode of season four. Yes. It's been a challenging podcast for us, but pretty rewarding.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's right. Challenging in terms of, well, yeah, challenging in terms of confronting.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, confront[05:58] ing. Yeah, confronting. Yeah, and even setting up, we've never shared this story, but there was a six month or more delay between season three and four. And one of the big reasons for that is our podcast producer. Remember, he came to us just before we were recording and he said, oh, look, I hate to say this, but I've been listening to season two about the midlife slump and season three about being stuck in a domain of life. And he said, honestly, it's really spoken to me and [06:28] I've made a decision to make a career change. I'm going to put my business on ice and I'm going to be a landscape gardener and he loves it.

 

But the downside is we lost our podcast producer, but for good reasons because he followed the advice of the pod courses. So that can only be a win, but I put it back. He let his donkey go. He dropped the donkey. He dropped the donkey.

 

Oh dear. But yeah, so look, it's been a great season and today we're going to talk about relationships and we're going to talk about what it looks like to [06:58] let them and let me. But look, before we do, maybe we'll start by just asking a few things of our lessons, which we always love to do on our final episode, if that's all right, because it is super helpful for us if people can write a review. We would love you to write a review on Apple podcast. If you've liked this season, we'd love you to write a review on Spotify or wherever you kind of write reviews. [07:22] And probably even better still, we'd love you to tell your friends about this podcast, if it's been meaningful for you.

 

MATT BAIN: That's right. Please pass it on.

 

DANIEL SIH: Share the love, tell people we would love to impact more people and help more people have this conversation about what it means to be enough. All right, so Matt, let's start by introducing a book, The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins. It's super popular at the moment, at least at the time of this podcast. It's like number one N[07:52] ew York Times bestseller, definitely the one I see at the airport when I travel a lot. And so look, Mel Robbins is writing to audiences who are struggling with anxiety, feeling frustrated, not knowing their own boundaries, particularly in relation to people's kind of their relationships with other people. So Robbins begins her book by talking about her own struggles with relationships and anxiety and frustration. And she particularly talks about how she recognises that she has a need or [08:21] inner desire to control people and to control what people do and how they feel and how they think. And she talked about the inner worries that she has when she starts to kind of reflect on what people might be thinking about her as well. So her conclusion is that a lot of the exhaustion and frustration that she feels in her life is a product of other people's thoughts, opinions and feelings.

 

And that's really the foundation of where she came up with this term, Let Them and then Let Me. [08:50] So according to Robbins, humans are hardwired for the need to control and constantly manage their lives and other people's lives. But her big point really in the book is that adults can't be controlled by the very nature of what it means to be a human. People can think what they want and they can do what they want and they can act in whatever way they want. And so to try to control and manipulate and shape other people's behaviours will lead to misery unless you can learn to let go or let them.

 

[09:20] So let go of that need to shape how other people think and what other people do. So she realised that whenever she felt tense, stressed or frustrated, it almost always traced back to people and how they behaved and how they disappointed her. And her line is like the more we try to control others, the less control we have over ourselves. And so her solution is to learn to say let them, meaning [09:50] let them be.

 

Hey, so let me read a line from Robbins which I think summarises her Let Them theory pretty well. She says, Let my family be late to absolutely everything we go to. Let people hate the photo I posted online. Let them leave dishes in the sink. Let them do construction during the Monday morning commute. Let my mother-in-law disagree with my parenting. Let them be sold out of bagels at the bakery.

 

Let the neighbour's dog bark all day. In other words, yo[10:20] u can't control adults. You can't manipulate your life and all the circumstances around you. So learn to let them and I suppose let go is the term we've been using. I think it summarises it quite well.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, nice. There are some nice examples.

 

DANIEL SIH: Like right there. And quite broad examples so you can see how widely you can apply this idea of just letting go and trying not to control the things you can't control. Yeah.

 

MATT BAIN: Let me compliment [10:50] that with- I'll let you.

 

DANIEL SIH: Are you okay to let me? Yeah. As long as you let me not let you.

 

MATT BAIN: Let me compliment that with a quote, also take it from a book which kind of I suppose explains that with a bit more- A two-book, isn't it? Yeah, two-book. That's what it says. I thought you said A-book. No, sorry. Okay, okay.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me [11:19] compliment those excellent examples with some theory. This is lifted straight from her book as well. Okay. So this is like, I guess, more of a kind of theoretical explanation of all those examples. She wrote two simple words, let them change everything. The things that used to bother me just didn't. The people that used to annoy me just didn't. The tight grip that I had on life started to loosen up. Situations at work that would stress me out or cause me to go home and complain to my family just rolled off my back. [11:49] Brain space that was once overflowing with dumb worries, annoyances and drama was now available for more important things. It was liberating.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. So like, I mean, she writes in this kind of very, you know, wow, this has changed my life type way, but I think it's powerful. You know, she shares honest stories about how she's- Well, we talk about enoughness in this season.

 

It sounds like there's a sense where Robbins has come to grips with being[12:17]  enough on the inside by letting go of the need to control others, to manipulate, to own, to shape and therefore she can simply be. Is that kind of what you read from that passage?

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. It is. It is. I mean, it's still, I guess you take it to its logical conclusion, you know, and if you stop caring about what anyone else thought, then yeah, sure. Like you would feel very liberated and carefree. Yeah. And there could [12:38] be other words for you as well. What's going to label that condition?

 

DANIEL SIH: Which is true. And this leads us to her second point, because I don't want to leave Robbins kind of hanging at a one point. Really, the book was just a two-point book. I mean, it probably could have been a long blog post, to be honest, but let them is a great idea. But she says, let them only works when you say let me. So let them is about letting go of control and letting [13:06] go of having to control and manipulate others. But then she says you need to point the mirror to yourself and say let me. And what she means by that is to take full ownership and responsibility for your actions, your beliefs, your feelings and how you show up in the world.

 

So I mean, I think that's a really good balancer. On the one hand, you're trying to let them, meaning let go of the need for other people to act and think in a certain way. And you're saying, let me be fully responsible for how I show up, [13:34] what I do with those feelings and how I act. So she's not even saying that we should let them and then let people walk over us. And there's a lot in the book around what I would say, boundary setting and knowing, yes, sure, the mother and all might show up late, but that doesn't mean that has to be okay with me. Maybe we start dinner without her.

 

Does that make sense? Like there's a sense, that wasn't her example, but there's a sense where she's constantly thinking, what am I in control of? And what do I need to take responsibility for?

 

And how do I [14:04] show up as a mature adult without expecting others to do what I want them to do? And I think that's helpful. It's a good balancer. Yep. Okay.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. I mean, like that, that to me allows space for the possibility that my responsibility may involve some responsibility to influence others as much as I can in a particular direction without being reliant upon some, then performing to [14:34] some standard or to that expectation in order for me to be emotionally stable or happy.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, look, it reminds me of Ann Leray LeCoumpf again in Tiny Experiments. I really like that book. And she talked about active acceptance versus a resigning acceptance. I think that's a helpful kind of term in terms of psychology. So she says that active acceptance is healthy. And it's that [14:57] acceptance of things you can't control. We talked about the Serenity Prayer in a different episode, accepting when you can't change a situation or accepting when something is out of your control. And but doing it in a mature way that holds the tension and ownership of what you can do versus resigning acceptance, which is not a good thing, which is really the like, I don't know, hey, Sarah, whatever will be, will be, you know, like the, I'll just accept th[15:26] at the universe or the world around me is big and bad and out of my control.

 

So my fatalism, fatalism, I'll let my kids go absolutely kind of wild because I can't control them as opposed to, you know, having some ownership about how I shape their behaviour. I'll accept that I'm in a shitty job. And actually, it's everyone else's fault.

 

So you become passive aggressive rather than owning the fact that you need to do something about it. Like so. So, you know, [15:54] I think that's Robin's simple way of explaining that concept in a kind of a popular way. And I think that's helpful.

 

Good. So look, in her own words, she says, all human beings have a hard-wired need for control. But no matter how hard you try, you will never be able to control or change another person. The only person you are in control of is you, your thoughts, your actions, your feelings. And I think that kind of summarizes her large argument that yeah, we need to stop [16:24] allowing other people's actions and beliefs and behaviours to impact us really, really negatively.

 

And we need to be able to take ownership. So I mean, that said, booking a nutshell is pretty simple. I suppose there's things we liked about the book. Well, I've liked it.

 

Yeah, I'm ready yet. There's things I liked about the book. There's things I didn't like about the book. And I think it'd be good to talk about that related to what it looks like to me enough.

 

MATT BAIN: [16:56] So Dan, how about you tell us what you liked about the book, and then I'll tell you what I didn't like about the book despite not having ever read it.

 

DANIEL SIH: How about that? How about we do that? That sounds good. We'll do that. Look, there were some things, there were things I liked about the book. It reminded me a lot of Stephen Covey's concept of circle of influence versus circle of concern. So if anyone, if people have read Seven Habits of High Effective People, it's from the 90s. It's a very, very popular book. It was an excellent book.

 

At the time, I still think it's useful. [17:22] His concept is that we all have what he calls a circle of concern, let's say big circle. And they're the things that we might be concerned about, but we don't have any influence over. So he wasn't just talking in the relational domain, which Robbins is predominantly speaking into. But he talks about the idea that, you know, we might be worried about what's happening in Trump's America. We might be happy worried about what's happening with China globalism. We might be worried about the fact that my kid isn't studying very hard and I can't seem to have any impact on it. You know, like whatever it is, [17:51] we need to identify things that are in our circle of concern and essentially let them learn not to put too much time, energy and effort into those areas. Right? But then he says that inside of the circle of concern is a circle of influence.

 

That's the second circle. And they're the things that we can influence. Now we can influence to an extent the things we're worried about, but it's about drawing those things into the present.

 

Yeah. So I might be concerned about my child not studying. [18:19] Maybe I can't change their behaviours, but I can certainly influence them through, I don't know, sharing stories or encouraging them or having time with them and then trying to ask, you know, what would help you study? I don't know, whatever it is, we can almost always draw things into our circle of influence.

 

And I think that would be Mel Robbins, let me, if that makes sense. So I find it helpful in that sense. It's a simple way of explaining the difference between what you can control and what you can't. And what I like about[18:47]  Kovie's model is that he says, the more you focus your energy and time and attention on what you can change, so your circle of influence, the wider your influence becomes, the more proactive you become. Whereas the more you start to spend time talking about, focusing on, complaining about, watching reels on things that you're worried about in your circle of concern, which is kind of social media to a nutshell, that you shrink, like your influence shrinks, your proactivity shrinks and you end up living a shell of yourself [19:16] because you just spend all of your time focusing on stuff that isn't proactive and that's outside of your circle of influence and this inside of your circle of concern. So I think in that sense, I like Robbins' retake on that type of idea in maybe a, you know, I don't know, digital society. And I liked her take on it from a relational perspective. I don't know. Any comments on?

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, plenty. I just really prefer [19:43] that language. So I much prefer the language of concern and influence versus control. Okay. Or not control just because I think like control almost sounds like pretty black and white. And it's pretty simple, right?

 

As in a sote, it's too simple. In the sense that of course, I can't control what you or any other adult human being who you know, he's got their relatively fully functioning capacity going. I can't control them whatsoever. That's pretty obvious.

 

I can only control myself. That's also pretty obvious. But [20:11] you know, human interactions and dynamics is so much more complicated than that. And that's why I like the idea of influence because influence kind of to me covers that shade of grey.

 

Of course, I can't control what you do, but I've got varying degrees of influence in terms of encouraging you or moving or inspiring you towards particular ends and outcomes. So I really just like, I much prefer that kind of like that. Like it's, it's almost like more of a gradient. It's not a simplistic. Yeah.

 

DANIEL SIH: When I read Robyn's, I, [20:38] I don't think she is being simplistic, but the idea of let them I think could easily be taken as if it's kind of like you do you, follow your heart, like the kind of real like, oh, I don't know, the really simplistic kind of, yeah, let's just, let's just shake off our concerns and be happy. You know, it could be seen very simplistically because of the nature of that simple term.

 

I'm a single tattoo and apparently lots of people tattoo, let's let them on their arm. But, but I think her concept is strong,[21:08]  but it could be over simplified if it was misunderstood.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah. So yeah. So I shouldn't, yeah, you're right. I should just accept that in good faith and not, not be too judgy, too quick given to be fair. I haven't read the book.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. Yeah. But I think, I think it's true. I prefer Coby's language. Look, where, where I think the book fell short in kind of a bigger picture sense. And it's actually not a criticism of Robyn's herself because you and I have the whole podcast season have kin[21:38] d of navigated the idea that most of the books we've talked about, whether it be Morgan Housel's, The Art of Spending Money, or, or even 4000 Weeks, like most modern books that are self-help related end up falling in the camp of kind of hyper individualism. And what we mean by that is the, the worldview that kind of underpins it all is that you are like an island and that your responsibility is to define and discover and create your own sense of identity, your own belief sets, your own habits [22:08] that basically we walk around as individuals and we need to define what life looks like in and of ourselves. And maybe, you know, like Robyn's words are kind of like, we almost need to navigate the pain points of interacting with other people and therefore not lose our power, but it's a very individualized worldview. And you and I, I think are coming to the conclusion, at least in part, that a lot of our exhaustion and the problem of enoughness is that [22:37] we live in this culture, it's the water we swim in, and the very idea that we have to self define who we are, what we do, what we believe, how we act, what our habits are, how we show up, what our personal brand is. This is the very heartbeat or root of why we're so damn exhausted. And yet it's only one way of seeing the world.

 

So that's my thought. It's not actually a criticism of Robyn's per se, [23:04] but it's more the whole genre, but she really speaks into, because she's American, she speaks into it in a very kind of black and white way. So it becomes a bit more obvious. I'll read some of her quotes later on.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, I like that. I've been thinking a bit about your metaphor, about defining my life as an island. I like that. I think a further risk, and hopefully this doesn't kind of, if you don't push into the metaphor too much, but I think a further risk that a lot of people, and perhaps this kind of approach falls into, is that my island has ports, right? [23:33] And so, and the ports of such a nature that I am always like conscious and aware and alert to what ships on my land would come into my ports, you know, and those ships are ships of influence. So I think a relatively naive view is that I'm across all those ports and I'm kind of directing what influences come in and what I bar, and that is true to some degree. But I think the more that we find out about humanity and us as creatures, the more we're discovering that we are almost lik[23:56] e permeable. We are open to influences. A lot of the time we're not even really that kind of conscious of. So all those, like, so we've been through them this season, prior season, in terms of things like health and fitness. And now people are talking about it in terms of behaviours such as even like divorce. So if you have a couple of people in your life who would divorce the chances of you and your partner being divorced does like seems to, and it's not just correlations, causation, [24:24] it does like bump up the risks. Yeah.

 

DANIEL SIH: So we talked about like the risk of like behaviour being like a virus.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah. That's right. Almost like what people do around you. Yes. Yeah, that's right. We'll shape and change. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd also say that that kind of applies to like good influences, if you like, and ideals and, you know, noble aspirations to some degree. We're attracted to those.

 

We like the idea of those ships coming into our ports without even being kind of conscious of that. You know what I me[24:49] an? And that's what it means to be human. We are creatures that kind of imitate, if you like, to some degree. We kind of copy. We are influenced by the people's behaviours around us without it being directly conscious.

 

DANIEL SIH: So just like I haven't heard your analogy of ports and islands. Now my head's spinning, but I should have drawn a picture.

 

NARRATOR: I should have drawn a picture. And given me the tattoo. But are you saying that like we like to think of ourselves as an island, but in reality, we're not. Yeah. Because [25:19] we are shaped by the people, the social media, the culture, the stories around us more than we would like to believe.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Yeah. In ways that we're not even always consciously, intentionally aware of.

 

DANIEL SIH: And that's what you mean by the ports, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean. Yeah. And I agree with that. So I think, I mean, this is the whole critique we would have of hyper individualism. I mean, again, there's pros and cons with every worldview, but essentially it assumes that, A, we are in control of our own beliefs, behaviours, [25:48] habits and worldview where you and I believe the research is oppositely, but actually we're massively impacted by where we live, who we spend time with and what impacts us.

 

So we're not actually islands. And the second thing, I mean, you said this before when we were talking about it and writing notes, you know, I like this that we, the hyper individual worldview underestimates the individual's capacity for self-delusion, distorted thinking and other kind of like biases. Tell me about that. Cause tha[26:16] t's a point that you raised as we were kind of planning.

 

MATT BAIN: Oh yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. No, it's just like the fact that at least in my own experience, this has been borne out when it comes to, you know, most of my peers and anecdotal accounts as well. I have a really, really good capacity for self justification, for rationalization, for getting myself off the hook for a bunch of stuff and perhaps like not doing everything that I can and should to meet the like some good aspirations and goals [26:45] that I set for myself. So I can, you know, so I can easily provide myself convincing reasons why, you know, I haven't treated that person well or I haven't exercised that day or I've chosen like to start up too late and eat poorly, blah, blah, blah. So I can, you know, all perhaps why I, you know, I, I have some, some grievance against like this particular group of people. I can easily justify that myself. I need to have other people in my life else, you know, who I can trust and who I know, love me and have my best, my bes[27:14] t concerns who can, I thank you for mission to kind of speak input into my life and hold me, if you like, hold me to some account or encourage towards some standards or some, some values that I've identified as being ones that I'm aspiring to and forward. Does that make sense?

 

DANIEL SIH: Absolutely. So the risk of let them and let me is it's like I'm walking around as an island. There are people around me who are making me frustrated, annoyed, who I want to control and manipulate. And so I need to let them be them [27:39] and I need to take ownership of my beliefs, my story and my actions in and of myself. But the delusion about that is actually we need other people to externally input into our lives and to help us see our blind spots, our faults and our delusions. If we kind of walk around thinking that we are an autonomous, isolated unit will be deluded ourselves because people are really, really important to treat, to create truth.

 

MATT BAIN: Yes. Well, yeah. Can I have [28:08] like take that and level it up? Sure. And then I'll level it up again. So like going back to the island and ports analogy.

 

DANIEL SIH: Oh, here we go. There's gotta be support. So I think, I think, yeah, but, but here's the truth. Like the truth is the way that I see it is that every island has the ports, right? The amount of, so what I have influence and control over is again, me encouraging particular ships to come in and if you like drop the influence, you know, [28:34] so I can, so I've got control and influence over which ones I encourage to come in and maybe in conscious of that. If you're the person who thinks, you know what, I'm just an island and I've got no ports or the only ports that the only ships that are coming into the ones that I know about, that's only because you have been like, you've been under the influence of people who have told you that. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it's not, so it's not, so no person is completely an island.

 

Yeah. So you surround yourself with media, with [29:00] people, with culture, where everyone says, I'm an individual. And then we all say, we're all individual. And then we all realise we've got to let them tat, like every second person does. Exactly. Because you're an island.

 

MATT BAIN: Like it's exactly right. We've been talking about this. So, yeah, cool. That makes sense. And the last point I think it's worth noting on this. And again, it's just the broad critique of hyper individualism and that idea that we self-define everything

 

DANIEL SIH: is that happiness is found in relationships. I mean, ultimately, [29:29] and the research is really clear. I mean, the quality of our life, our mental health, our happiness, our sense of purpose is found in the people around us and our relationships with them, which is going to be messy and it's going to be complex and it's going to be frustrating. So I see the value in saying, let them, when we're trying to control people, that is definitely helpful and let me. But we wouldn't want to get to the stage where we think that actually our happiness is up to us and our autonomy and us holding our power. And I think the language of [29:58] Robbins is a bit like that, when in reality, We need community.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, that's right. That's right. And, um, and chances are that community is sometimes going to be messy. Yeah. And it's not always going to be easy. And it may be like, and it may involve people sometimes telling you stuff or feeding back, giving you input that isn't always that immediately palatable [30:20] for you. Yeah. It could be some unvarnished truths that are actually good for you.

 

DANIEL SIH: And instead of saying, let them every time someone says something you don't like, you may need to say, actually, is there truth to that? And that's the wisdom, right? You know, when is someone's critique just trolling you and being shitty and being annoying and you just kind of let it go?

 

Yeah. When is someone feedback? Oh, yeah, there's a blind spot and I don't see it in myself and I need to take ownership of that. And I so I think there needs to be a bit more nuance in the framework. That's probably where it's worth.

 

MATT BAIN: [30:49] That's my only real critique. We both, um, we both liked that article that came out the New York Times. Well, like probably over the last six months, I can't remember the author's name.

 

It was a male, um, a guy who wrote this great piece on the fact that, um, so much like at least, you know, for men these days, so much of the podcasts, like the big name podcast that a lot of people listen to, the guys listen to lift we[31:17] ights, spend time in the gym and maybe experiment with psychedelics and all these things.

 

DANIEL SIH: Run kind of hypermarathon. Yeah, yeah, go hardcore.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, go hard, particularly with your body. So you get like this rigorous discipline and control over your body and kind of like and feel like you are kind of dominating your body and making your slave. Yeah.

 

DANIEL SIH: And so with the end of the room, [31:40] I mean, it is a, it can of course be a feminine message, but I think it's real masculine.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, it seems to appeal. Yeah, that's right. Cause it's all about self reliance. Yeah. And individualism. Yeah. Yeah. And the author said he actually, he exercised, he tracked it for, he went, I think at least ran for a thousand plus days in a row through like sickness or kind of weather conditions. And he said, didn't he said at the, or he wrote at the end of that, he felt like more masculine. Yep. [32:05] And he felt more self reliant and more power and more power.

 

DANIEL SIH: He was fitter, strong, like he truly became like a Navy suit.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He changed, but he also felt more miserable and lonely than ever before.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. And my understanding of the summary of that New York Times article, we'll have to put a link in the notes because I can't remember the name is that he actually said that this isn't the right way to find humanity. Yeah. He said, I realized that actually, was this the article that I used to have friends and we used to just have fun together and connect. [32:33] And I suppose he was trying to come to that recognition that actually he's not an island and that happiness is not found in self mastery, but in vulnerability with others, which was actually a really good article.

 

MATT BAIN: It was great. Yeah. It was great because it went from let me equating rugged individualism and sort for reliance. That wasn't enough. Let me has to involve, let me do something with you. Yeah.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah. That makes sense. Hey, so let me wrap up this section by reading some kind of classic Robbins. This is the [33:01] conclusion of the let them theory and look, I picked something that I might critique. But again, there was there was a lot of gold in the book. So I'm glad I read the book, but she says this this book isn't really about other people.

 

It's about you. And then capital you hold the power and you are the one who has been giving it away. And later in the conclusions, she says, the most important part of the let them theory is understanding that you [33:31] are responsible for your own happiness. You are responsible for defining what matters to you.

 

Nobody owes you anything, but you owe yourself everything. And again, there's truth to that, especially, I think to the audience she's writing to where potentially people do need to have a greater sense of confidence and self mastery, maybe or or yeah, a greater sense of stepping into who they are. [34:00] So I think there's some real value in her language, but I think it overplays the independence we have and overplays the fact that we'll be happy if we have control of everything.

 

It's the same message as the Navy Seal kind of guy message. And I just don't think we're entirely responsible for our life for our habits for our worldview for our happiness. I think we are truly [34:29] interdependent and we need to balance it better.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And some people I think would argue or mount a pretty strong argument based on the wisdom of the past and some of the great sages and religions and spiritual traditions of the past that if you set out to directly hunt down, pursue and acquire catch happiness. It's about as futile as trying to control other people as in it is never happiness is not something that is kind of obtained head on directly. [34:59] It's a result of pursuing other things and other paths and perhaps other virtues.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, that makes sense. So look as we wrap up this section maybe have a moment of silence. I suppose how do you see this related relating to the dilemma that we've been tackling all season, which is that we are obsessed with self help with self improvement with self optimization [35:22] and that constant need to define to improve and to refine is causing us to feel exhausted inside and out. Now this is clearly about relationships and how relationships impact us. But yeah, how do you see the connection between the let them let me theory in a helpful way and this idea of being enough.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah, so the way that I that I kind of conceptualize it is that I need to [35:50] I need to have some idea of what enough looks like when it comes to people who I respect and in mind value. I suppose what's what I'm looking for maybe not admiring but me knowing that I have kind of met what I see as their fair expectations.

 

Sorry, like that's really that's a long winded way of saying something. Let me try to kind of simplify it a bit [36:18] enough for me is knowing that I'm doing alright in the eyes of people who I value and I've allowed in my life and said I respect you I value you and I want your feedback on how you think I'm going. Yeah, that makes sense and that is different from saying again because there are so many people out there who I could potentially try to please and with the admiration and approval of and that would be too much and that's what I think I need to kind of to some degree let them but funnily enough, at least in my case, [36:47] it's not so much. I don't start off with let them I need to kind of start off like with let me as in let me again be a bit more rigorous and honest about where that line is between everyone potentially everyone and the people who I kind of say okay.

 

I need to have to some degree I value your opinion and your feedback and your appraisal of how I'm going in terms of again living to the standards that I've defined as being important to me.

 

DANIEL SIH: [37:12] Does it make sense? It does and again I think there's a personality difference here because let me is absolutely my natural default you know in the Clifton strength set I have responsibility in my top five which means I take psychological ownership for anything I say I'll do. So I'm really good at looking at my circle of influence and doing stuff in myself. I find it hard to let them when things don't go my way and to kind of open my hands and to let go of control so I'm probably a bit more like a Robbins in that sense so I find it valuable in that way. [37:40] I just think we need the nuance to both recognise that we need to be individual and take ownership for our lives and take ownership for how we interact with other people but also not be an island and be interdependent and be vulnerable and recognise like you said that there are people in our lives we want to let in and by letting them in they're going to hurt us and they're going to shape us and they're going to challenge us and to not be [38:07] too much in the camp of it's all about you. And so it's nuanced it's balanced and hopefully within that space you can work out what's enough. So why don't we have a pause just some silence I'd encourage our listeners to reflect on what's helpful for you do you need to focus on let them do you need to focus on let me.

 

What do you simply need to reimagine what it looks like for you to be an island and reexamine how much you are actually in control by yourself without others. [38:38] With your ports with some ports make space have some silence. So hopefully that time of silence was useful I always like reflecting that's my introvert nature but look this has been a big season. It's been big for us we've covered a lot of ground if listeners are listening to this epi[39:12] sode for the first time well I'd certainly encourage you to go back to the rest of the podcast because it is designed as a course to take you from A to Z.

 

But we thought maybe let's quickly summarize some of what we've talked about over the whole podcast season and then finish with a [39:38] few thoughts about what you and I have personally gained out of it and the challenges we found in the in delivering and developing this. So look essentially the season was all about how to make space for a life that is enough. What I think is fascinating is you and I began this season thinking this is going to be about you know consumerism and algorithms and some of the kind of shoulds and must do is that we're told we need to do [40:06] and that's what's making us feel tired in terms of health and happiness and money and other things. And the further we've gone into this and the more we've researched it and thought about it kind of deeper and deeper we think it's gone. And for me I think it's things like well it's it's the culture we're in it's the hyper individuals and we have it's like you said it's having a finite life and infinite possibilities like it's been pretty deep hasn't it.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah yeah yeah it has it has like it's to my way thinking it shifted perhaps [40:35] from the initial take of well the problem is out there it's largely being driven by external forces like consumerism for example and algorithms and you know tailored advertising and blah blah blah and media to more and more being an eternal issue as in like the world view that I carry around. The unsatidun conscious expectations that I carry around about my life.

 

DANIEL SIH: And they're absolutely they intersected and interlinked but I think you and I have ended up spending a lot more time than we expected on the inner world views beliefs [41:04] and paradigms that we have because ultimately I think the exhaustion we have is based on how we see the world and what we expect of ourselves and the other stuff is what feeds that world view. So yeah hopefully that's been as useful for listeners as we've found it but we've talked about lots of different things do you want to give a bit of a summary of

 

MATT BAIN: stuff that we've covered for those who want to be recap. Yeah yeah sure that sounds useful. So here's a list [41:31] of I suppose themes or forces that have come up over the course of the season so far the really important thing to remember off the bat is that these themes and forces aren't per se good or bad. But we've talked a lot about I suppose how we can see them being used optimally and then ways that they can be exercised or thought of in our lives that aren't so helpful to our way of thinking that again can feel like life is diminishing and space is like is rapidly running out as opposed to being healthy. So [41:59] we talked about self help for example so again nothing wrong with self help self help except it was hard to pronounce self hyphen help but it can it can kind of go bad in the sense that it can become a real problem. So we've got really a high pressure set of protocols routines and endless must do's for self care.

 

DANIEL SIH: So we talked about the Huberman Huberman effect. Yeah we came up with funky names. Go back to episode three if you want to know.

 

MATT BAIN: Oh no number one. Yeah I think it was number one. [42:28] And then we looked at a favourite of my finitude. So the difficulty of the challenge of getting by with a finite life can't really argue with that in a world that just kind of always is offering you infinite possibilities and how to navigate that.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah yeah yeah. Health again nothing wrong with health but we talked about the ongoing pressure to stay young active healthy. [42:50] That was our vegan CrossFit paradox.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah number three. Yeah that's right that was number three. Yeah yeah yeah yeah and then probably like one of the deeper ones we did in an already deep season but the deepest was maybe around about identity. That a bit like we've already covered this episode the expectation that we are solely and wholly responsible for kind of defining who we are for authoring our lives in a completely blank canvas without any shared or collective view of what enough for a person looks like.

 

That was a big one. Attachment so again nothing wrong with attachments they're healthy that they kind of keep us anchored to a good life. But we talked a lot about unhealthy attachments.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah attachments being when you love something so much that you hook your identity to it and therefore you need more[43:19]  of it and it makes you miserable. So I think that was a really another important episode that really talks about some of why we find it's hard to struggle with enough.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah yeah we talked about people roles even like ideals job all that kind of stuff in terms of the attachments.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah and we talked about Kairos I think was the next one or was it legacy.

 

MATT BAIN: It was legacy. Yeah yeah yeah that's right. That's right having to leave a dent in the universe. I think to quote Steve Jobs and how in our case or in the parties that we go to that's more from the not attached to I guess professional roles and our jobs.

 

DANIEL SIH: And how that can make you miserable. So what it means to have a professional role and to make an impact with but while while not needing it to be. Yeah yeah without big to touch to it. Yeah so [43:48] then we talked about Kairos moments and the idea that we can have kind of too many goals or we can chase goals in the future and then miss out on the present month. And what it looks like to look for those serendipitous spontaneous moments and do something with them.

 

MATT BAIN: Yes and then we looked at money.

 

DANIEL SIH: Lots of money stuff. A two-parter. We had two-p[44:12] arter wasn't it. Yeah yeah that's right. So yeah we had that long conversation around the stories that we tell ourselves about money. So and that highlighting the fact that money is more psychological than I guess a hard black and white science. Yeah my big take home from the money episodes really was that you can try to earn more money or you can actually reduce you[44:40] r desires and say what I already have is enough. You did like that didn't you. I did and I thought that was I think that's a really key idea to managing money at a psychological level.

 

MATT BAIN: Was that the expectation gap.

 

DANIEL SIH: Probably yeah yeah well let's call it that. And obviously we talked about you know relationships and what it means to let them and let [45:09] me for this episode. This very episode. So why don't we finish with a quick summary of what you and I have found useful from this season.

 

MATT BAIN: Tell me what's really stood out for you. I was hoping you were going to make me go first. I don't know about yeah so useful is the kind word for it like I said at the start. Yeah yeah I found it probably I honestly have found it more more confronting. The two themes that have emerged strongest for me [45:38] have been that of gratitude. So the need for more gratitude has become abundantly clear over the course of us prepping for this and delivering it talking to other people about it on the way reading the books etc etc that I am not by nature a grateful person. So I'm not thankful enough. I'm not grateful enough and

 

DANIEL SIH: one of the things kind of say more than that you often. You're often because remember you've got to bring por[46:03] ts into your island. You're often quite dissatisfied with life. Yeah. I think it's probably better.

 

MATT BAIN: Not as a criticism but that's just something you've shared. Oh yeah. And I'm sure there's some way to dress it up so it doesn't sound like criticism. Just a bit of fact. Yeah so I am not perpetually but I am quite frequently and regularly dissatisfied. So you put all those you say you put the you put that I was going to say like a [46:33] gratitude. Let's call it what the ungratefulness coupled with the relatively frequent levels of low grade dissatisfaction and I'm not. I'm not very well poised to genuinely appreciate and make the most of and revel in the many good things that I've already been given or I've already been given.

 

I still have access to yet. Yeah that's right. Yeah. So that has been that has been pretty confronting [47:03] and then coupled with that is this idea of a finitude. So it I can talk about it. I can theorise about it. I can theorise on it and I can certainly recognise it in other people's lives but I'm not. I don't it still doesn't fit comfortably with me the idea of a finitude. So as in I still think you're not going to die.

 

Yeah. It's not even that because again like that you know agent stage makes it harder makes that harder to ignore. So it was relatively abstract but it's more I think[47:32]  I can fit everything in today and I can fit everything in next week and I think I can fit everything in next month and then I can fit everything in this year and I can't and I don't like that.

 

I don't because that means having to say no to things and that coupled with a constant sense of like dissatisfaction and lack of gratitude means I'm always kind of like wanting I'm always striving for more and you know and you know we've talked about this like here and there. I guess [48:01] what has become really abundantly clear to me is that in terms of like going back to the stories of money. I think the revelation is I've equated money with self-improvement. So not you know not even experiences not even just like more fun toys and all that kind of stuff but the big thing for me is that money can buy self-improvement. So like learning access to new things pushing myself new skills which again is kind of symptomatic of me wanting to keep on endlessly kind of like self-improvement. Why do I want to keep on self-improvement that's probably like a whole other conversation [48:31] but somewhere in that conversation is there needs to be a ceiling of enough. So feeling that that you know right now or you know I am enough or like all that kind of stuff.

 

DANIEL SIH: So we went through the aware framework and so out of out of the kind of the acrostic. Yeah. Appreciation and watch for Kairos acceptance relinquish and enough which practice do you think has been most helpful for you to move forward. Yeah.

 

MATT BAIN: So enoughness is definitely one [49:01] relinquish is definitely one. And what gratitude was in there wasn't it. Yeah. That's appreciation is appreciation. So appreciation relinquish and enoughness. Yeah. Nice. Other three for me and somewhere like in there I'm not you know I'm trying to think where maybe comes under the enoughness piece or maybe actually like the appreciation piece. I thought there was something that came up in the money couple of episodes as well that really spoke to me around the idea of being more [49:31] certain and sure if you like. And conscious of the stuff that really is meaningful for me and be able to appreciate that more and perhaps invest if you like. I said that's a that's some kind of indicator of enough if that makes sense.

 

So instead of trying to chase everything that the stuff if I'm more conscious and intentional and aware of the stuff that really is of value to me and having to say it's going to help say no to other stuff which again will help define what enough is. Does that make sense. Yeah. [50:00] Yeah. Okay. How about you.

 

DANIEL SIH: Looks for me the look there are lots of take homes and I found it really helpful for me personally. But the big one was an idea we didn't even speak about that much on really and and it's been I've just it's just kind of stu[50:04] ck with me like a stone in my shoe and it's it came from really Morgan Howsley's book on money where and I'm not relating it to money actually but he talked about the idea that we often. Most of us think that if we had a bit more money you know like we earn [50:33] twice as much as we have now or then we would have enough but he said that what we're doing is we are psychologically putting ourselves into the future. And imagining a state in the future where we are content with how much money we have. So where we are sitting there thinking well I'm content I have enough.

 

I'm happy I'm secure I'm safe. Does that make sense. But in reality what happens is when people earn more money well then their desires increase and their needs and wants increase and because [51:03] they're so used to the psychological pattern of wanting something in the future and imagining themselves being content in the future well then they just keep. Jumping it forward and then never quite enough. That has been really helpful for me at a broader level because I've definitely been someone who sees the future I chase goals and I look into what I want and I've realized actually what I'm doing is I'm imagining a point in time where our podcast wins an award and we've got tens of thousands of listeners and my huge channel grow[51:32] s whatever it is you're right. I'm imagining that state and thinking when I get there then I'll be content and I'll say that's enough. But in reality if you told me 10 years ago that I would have a TEDx talk with like a million views and a podcast that was listened to and blah blah blah blah blah right.

 

I would have said that would be amazing then that would definitely be enough does that make sense. The reality is I'll always jump ahead unless I pause right now and say now it's time to change my mindset and the mindset has to be. Wow [52:02] what I have is enough like genuinely absolutely is more than enough like because I'm not defined by what I do. And I just need to broaden the scorecard of my life and start to be grateful for the small things the big things to practice enoughness to relinquish control. Like all the things we've been talking about have been really helpful for me and I think that actually lets me be content in the now so that if I reach a different future state in the future well then I'll also be content [52:32] and if it doesn't happen well I can be content as well.

 

Does that make sense? So something I'm working on and someone said to me once well this isn't something you do one done like it's not a once off thing this is like a daily practice. One of my coaching clients said that to me and I actually think that's really really true in my case like I find it valuable or necessary to practice thankfulness like in a thankfulness journal every day [52:58] to relinquish control every day. You know with my hands open in the cold shower which I talked about to practice saying what I have not what I don't have and to practice sharing at the end of the day with my wife what's been good not just bad about my day like it's just a group of practices that I think are trying to help me truly sit in this space where I'm not trying to make myself happy in the future but I see [53:26] myself as being enough right now. And for that that's been a challenge and it is a challenge I feel like I'm just making baby steps but that's what I've got out of this season it's been super helpful to research it to talk about it to think about it and to then practice some of those little tips.

 

Interesting. Yeah I don't feel like I'm adding to my life like we didn't want people to feel like they had to add more. I feel like these are just ways of allowing my heart and head to change [53:55] to truly sit with what I have and just to be grateful and to think wow we have an amazing life and I'm so thankful for what I have and I see that shifting and I love it. I really like it.

 

MATT BAIN: Okay good. I mean they do say as well don't they that you pick up like you pick up a coin and you pick up both sides of the corn or you pick up one end of the stick and you pick up the other. And so part of me like does wonder you know if [54:24] Dan becomes the Dan who's satisfied and grateful and enough now whether that means that Dan no longer becomes the Dan that will do like the next great big in the next decade.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah and look it is both and the reality is even Arthur Brooks on an interview talked about the fact that as much as his book strength to strength talks about letting go and not needing professional success.

 

He still wants to write the next award winning book. So I don't think I'm ever going to be [54:54] at risk of having no vision or goals or drive. I think that is so embedded into my persona that is probably more I need to practice the other dark arts of thankfulness and enoughness. Yeah. Yeah I could I agree that they're both interconnected. Yeah.

 

MATT BAIN: And that's a good thing and it's just life. Interesting. Yeah. So that's what I got out of the season. I'm very grateful for what we've learned. Yeah. Yeah it's well yeah I'm grateful for what. Yeah.

 

[55:23] I'm trying to be grateful for what I've been confronted with. I did the gear change now but very excited to talk about what we're going to unveil and explore for season five. Season five. And speaking of season five I believe it's a very special five year anniversary for[55:28]  someone and something.

 

DANIEL SIH: Is that right? I know. If you're on YouTube listening or watching you know Space Maker. Maybe doing both. My first book. Yeah. How to unplug. Doing both. How to unplug unwind and think clearly in the digital age. It's fifth year anniversary [55:57] this year. Seriously congrats. Yeah and so as we hit the fifth year we thought it would be good to actually talk about my book. One of the comments that one of our audience members said is you never talk about your book and it's excellent. And I'm like well yeah I don't know I just kind of got bored with it because I spent so much time on it.

 

But it is an excellent book and what we would like to talk about are the concepts in the book. So we've had a season I can't remember what we called our first season it was more like [56:25] the fracturing of our mind. But then we got kind of the warm up.

 

Yeah the warm up. But it was a good season. But season two we called reset which is about the midlife reset season three was unstuck. And that was about how to get unstuck in an area of life one step at a time.

 

This one was obviously enough. But the next one's going to be unplugged how to unplugged unwind and think clearly in the digital age. It's not going to be just about tech.

 

Yeah. It's going to be about how to reimagine your relationship with the online world. [56:54] And how to actually make space in your life for deep work. Deep thought and deep rest. There are really meaty deep concepts in this book.

 

I actually spent five years writing the first five chapters. So we're going to cover topics like power, freedom and choice, love as it relates to our relationship with technology. We'll get really practical and talk about the rhythms of rest. Talk about digital Sabbath how to create a weekly pattern of rest. How to [57:23] create patterns for deep thought.

 

And what I'd also like to do is build on the book and critique it because it's five years. That was pre COVID. Yeah. Pre AI.

 

Yeah. And what I suspect when we reread this book is almost everything in it will be 100% relevant to an AI age. Because it wasn't like about kind of technology but about how we engage with meaning. [57:51] And so I think we should explore that. I think it'll be useful. Yeah.

 

MATT BAIN: Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be fun.

 

DANIEL SIH: And I might even have another book out by then. Why is AI which I'm co-writing with Paul Matthews, an AI guy, a specialist. He's a real person though, right? He's a real person. That's right. Although we might use chat GP to help us edit it. But yeah, we might even have a new book out specifically about AI which I'll talk about during the season. So if you're interested, yeah, tune in for season five.

 

It should be great. We just want to give a huge thanks to our sponsors. [58:21] I thank you so much, Bok Nutrients, who has been our long-time major sponsor of this show. We love your supplements. We love that you partner with this show.

 

We love that you're Tasmanian based and literally around the corner from where we are. But this show wouldn't be possible without you. So thank you. Yeah, thank you Paul. And really thank you also to our new sponsor, Fuller's Bookshop. It's been fantastic to partner with you. So good to have you guys on board.

 

Yeah. Matt was delighted. He loves books. And look, if you haven't yet downloaded our summary of the whole course, [58:50] please do so.

 

It's at spacemakers.au forward slash s4. We put a lot of work into our infographics, our handouts. Like I think if you found this useful, please download it. And finally, share it with your friends. Tell others about it.

 

Leave a review. It means the world to us because we read every review and it just helps Matt and I know what people are connecting with and what to share more of. And it just encourages us because every podcast is like a marathon for us. It's an enormous amount of time an[59:18] d energy to prep and to prepare. It takes about a day to prepare for every single episode and more. But it's been a joy for us to do it. Any final words, Matt?

 

MATT BAIN: You know, we said at the start of this season Dan that this was like the anti-self-help, self-help season. You know what I mean? One thing that I kind of associate with the worst versions of self-help is that it is like, here's the snake oil, quick fix. Just listen to this one season of podcast. Read this book and your life will be like ju[59:47] st transformed.

 

DANIEL SIH: Yeah, just say one word and...

 

MATT BAIN: One word, yeah. Like here's the mantra. Here's the one practice. Here's the silver bullet. You know, and like we told people, our commitment was we're hoping that people are going to feel lighter by the end of this. And I suppose, you know, after reflecting on the season and us being so invested in it, as in this one was particularly personal. I think I'd like to say that I'm feeling lighter, but not as light as I'd like to feel. But I feel that [01:00:15] I'm a much better equipped after going through this season to kind of reach there. So back to your point that you mentioned before, it's not one-on-done.

 

If I thought that this season was somehow left people feeling miraculously better at the end of like, you know, 10, one hour max episodes, then I feel like it was a bit of a shame.

 

DANIEL SIH: But it sounds like there's a map. Yeah. And there's some deeper framework to work through. Yeah. And it sounds like you and I both have some next steps. Yeah. That's it. [01:00:44] So look, that was our hope when we started this podcast, when we researched it, when we thought about this topic of enough and how to make space for a life that is enough. Our hope was that you would walk away a bit lighter, a bit freer, with a bit more space in your life, even though you might have a lot on and you might still want to improve your life and even measure and optimize it. We wanted you to do it without feeling like you had to, like you ought to.

 

And we wanted you to walk away, yeah, feeling like you had space at a deeper level [01:01:13] for a life that was truly enough. So hopefully this has been useful. Thank you so much for journeying with us for the whole podcast. If you've followed us the whole way. We're looking forward to season five when we get around to it. But until next time, make space. Make space.

 

NARRATOR: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

 

DANIEL SIH: This episode is sponsored by The Spacemakers Dojo, our much loved online community [01:01:41] helping busy professionals make space alongside others. For a limited time, get 12 months for the price of six with code PODCAST25 visit spacemakers.au/dojo. Hopefully I'll see you there.

 

NARRATOR: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.