[00:00:00] Hey there, space makers. I'm Daniel Sih, joined by my good friend and co-host Matt Bain. This is the third season of The Space Makers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life more than a podcast. This podcast will help you get unstuck in one area of life. One step at a time by helping you shift the way you live and work big thanks to our sponsor.

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the space makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

Hi everyone. Welcome back to season three of the Space Makers where we are helping you to get unstuck for a surprising second act.

And we are up to episode nine of 10. And I'm here with Matt Bain, the secret source of the Space Makers Podcast. Welcome. Thanks, Dan. I appreciate being referred to as source.

[00:01:00] It's been a long, a long, a long held goal.

That's excellent. Great to be here for the uh, yeah, the home strike. Yeah, home straight. And we're gonna talk about the importance of traveling alongside others as we head towards the wrap up.

That's right. I believe that must be the T in shift. The T in shift. Yeah. So look, I want you to imagine not just you, but our listeners. I want you to imagine feeling stuck in life. There's a habit that you wanna shift or a change that you wanna make. And you know, you sit there and you think, I just need more.

Discipline. I need more self-belief. I need more, I dunno, motivation and drive. Uh, but I suppose what we'd like to question in this episode is whether or not that's helpful thinking, you know, is motivation enough or is it that we might need to think about who we are being shaped by? Because our environment, the people we spend time with, who we travel alongside, can make such an enormous difference, particularly if we're trying to get unstuck.

I dunno about you, although [00:02:00] we have spent a fair bit of time together now, so I can probably guess like you say, enough for you to

say that, you know, feel comfortable

Sy you call me saucy. Uh, yeah. But we be fair to say, I think we all kind of know, or we all kind of ensure that change as impersonal change is actually, well it involves a social process.

Mm-hmm. Slight change is social, so we can look. To psychology. We can look to neuroscience, we can look to sociology particularly. But I think, you know, again, we can just as importantly look to personal or anecdotal experience to know that the people that we spend a lot of time with have a profound influence on our behavior.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so this, uh, this quote's been doing the rounds for a while. It's attributed to, um, Jim Rome, I believe the late Jim Roh, uh, who said pretty much you are gonna be the average of the five people who you spend the most time with.

It's so true, isn't it? I mean, I dunno if the five people is scientifically validated, but it's de.

Definitely true. That who you spend time with, mm. Who you shape your life around will actually shape you back again like a mirror, right? Yeah,

that's right.

And I think it's so easy, I reckon particularly in our, I don't know, individualized social media based culture [00:03:00] to just think it's all about you. It's about your habits, it's about your motivation, it's about your strategy, and drive it.

We really want to kind of, I don't know, lift the lid on the importance of it being about. Others 'cause it's not actually about you. A lot of who you are is shaped by those who travel alongside.

And like you said, I, I think that the mirror metaphor is good in terms of, uh, reflection and also like reinforcement.

Mm-hmm. And the beautiful thing is if we are stuck and you're trying to find ways to get unstuck in a domain or era of your life, you know, one small step at a time, well then you can actually start by looking outside of yourself. Reflecting on who do you spend time with and who would you like to reflect or mirror, and that can be a great strategy for moving forward, which we're gonna talk about.

So Dan, uh, we love research. Yes, we do. We wanna base some of this stuff on actual science stuff that was real,

real science, the hard science, rather than just our made up stuff. Yeah.

So, yeah. So please, uh, tell us, uh, tell us about a study that is [00:04:00] really pertinent to this topic of change being social.

Yeah.

Excellent. So, look, we stumbled across this study. It's from the Journal of Social Psychology from 2008, so it's a few years ago, but it's called Social Support and the perception of Geographical Slant. Or what I prefer to call the Jack and Jill study. Uh, so Jack and Jill went up a hill to fetch a pail of water.

The question is, why did they do it together instead of walking up the mountain individually? And this study actually helps to explain that deep conundrum, which I imagine you've been thinking about for years, Matt. Right. Well,

that, and you know, uh, you know, on a bad day, did you actually push Jack?

That's right.

He fell somehow. Right? He just, I don't think he just tripped. Oh, yeah. We're gonna focus more on the start of the Okay. The start of the story, not the end of it. Sure. But, um, I love how. Some research studies are just, I don't know, quirky or interesting, I dunno how they came up with 'em. But basically scientists were trying to work out whether or not who you do life with actually makes life easier.

And so they set up kind of a mini lab at the base of a hill or you know, it sounds more like a mountain. And when [00:05:00] people walk past, they tried to recruit them into the study and so simply they asked them to estimate. How steep the mountain was in front of them and how hard it would be to climb. They used a number of kind of well designed metrics.

I think visual metrics, they would write stuff down or estimate it. They would use what we call haptics, so they would put their hands on, kind of tilt boards and estimate how steep the mountain was. But look, needless to say, this has been well verified in other kind of mountaineering research. But what was interesting is that when walkers were solo.

Well, then they would consistently estimate the Hillel to be steeper than if they were walking alongside someone else, which, you know, is interesting. Right. And, and then they, they asked about the quality of the relationships between those people who are walking together. And what they found is if people describe their relationships in terms of warmth and connection, if they had high trust in the relationship or could maybe.

Rely on each other in tough times. Well then those pairs would actually describe the [00:06:00] mountain as being even less steep than those who are, who are walking with a more of a kind of an acquaintance and, and even more so than someone who was solid. So, I mean, bottom line is the research has showed that our perception of a climb of a mountain or maybe a difficult goal or something that's hard to achieve.

Is actually easier when we're with others. We perceive that life is easier and the challenges are less challenging when we're with people, particularly if we trust them. We know we know them well. So you know, why did Jack and Jill go up the hill? Well, they did it together because it was perceived to be less complex than walking by themselves.

I will quickly read a quote from Dennis. Prophet, who was one of the studies authors, he said, friendship and social support change how we perceive the world and how our bodies work. And it's a simple study, but I think it's an interesting idea when it comes to the idea that behavior, I. Is shaped by who we do life with.

Yeah, that's good. Potentially intimidating or tough [00:07:00] change is gonna be perhaps slightly less intimidating and perceived as being easier or at least less hard if you do it in tr well with alongside trusted company.

Yeah, and look, the sad thing about the whole story is obviously Jack and Jill had a falling out on the way, and therefore, you know, either Jack or Jill put each other down the hill and, uh.

Jack had a big falling. We went from there. But, um, the research that could be part two of the

research study. No, that's good. That's good, mate. Um, I'd be happy to climb a mountain with you. I'd like to have you alongside that. Sounds good. That's a sheer kind of thing, you know what I mean? Thanks. Thanks Matt.

I'll take that as a compliment coming from you. I like, uh, I know it's a. It sounds like a pretty simple study, but the surpri, the, um, the results still surprise me. That's probably not a finding, if you like that. I would've just inured or guessed.

Yeah, well, especially the idea that we actually perceive things differently based on who we're doing life alongside, and I think that definitely has an implication for, you know, different areas of life.

If you're in a team, if you're alongside people who you trust, well then you can [00:08:00] actually. Tackled hard things with less complexity.

Yeah, well that's the number of it for me. 'cause I think I probably would've guessed that the people, particularly people who I'm close to, they are gonna have an influence on how I perceive things.

What I wouldn't have picked up is that one of those common. Effects of being alongside someone who I'm close to is that potentially difficult tasks seem less hard. Mm-hmm. Or less difficult. That's that's the thing that really surprised me.

Yeah. That effect. Yeah. And look, I think that definitely kind of links into this theme of being unstuck.

And so when we feel stuck, how do we, I. Get alongside people we trust who we have an affinity with. Uh, how maybe can we walk alongside others who feel stuck as well? 'cause we know that we can lighten their load, be their shepherd, and make their journey easier. It's a privilege. So Matt, from Jack and Jill to the SHIP framework, do you wanna summarize for our listeners the journey we've been taking you on this acrostic.

That helps people get unstuck.

So week by week, S is for select. So we ask people right from the very [00:09:00] start just to kind of focus on one domain of life where they felt stuck. 'cause we, we wanted to keep it doable, realistic, and not overwhelming. And second of course is the H. So we talked about harnessing your strengths.

So again, for most of it's just so easy to start off from a place of deficiency, focusing on our weaknesses and trying to shore them up. Um, but we made a case for how the science actually supports the idea of starting with a strength. So using a strength, I guess most leverage. I was for, um, imagine multiple paths.

So again, it's easy for us to kind of get stuck in a, um, a tunnel when it comes to problem or stuckness and then solution. So we just double down on the thing that we've already done.

Yeah. Pros and cons list. Yeah. Either or thinking yes. Rather than multiple paths. Yes. Which we talked about in that kind of episode.

That's right. So imagine multiple paths. And then we got up to, um, f which stands for 14 ahead with action. So again, uh. There's a place for reflection. There's a place for contemplation, for planning, but eventually action is needed. And action reads motivation.

Mm-hmm. We talked about tiny habits. Yeah. And we talked about time blocking last episode, which we're gonna feed back on in a [00:10:00] moment.

Yeah, that's right. And then the T, which is where we are now. It's traveling alongside others.

Yeah. Amazing. As we climb a hill.

Yeah.

Well, what, what was our activity

from last week? Yeah, so the activity was to start off with it. Um, step one was what we called a time audit. So that was finding a, a place that's conducive to, um, focusing on your calendar or your diary, say over the past, like couple of months.

And seeing what that reflected in terms of your priorities and values. So, 'cause we talked about really how you spend your time, regardless of what you say and what you intend and your aspirations, how you actually spend your time and what you've actually put down, blocked off in your calendar or your diaries is a really good indicator of what is truly important to you.

Yeah.

You are what you do essentially, and so your values need to be reflected in your time.

Yeah, I am. What I do in the. Five people that I spend the most of that time with. Five people you spend your time with. That's right. We

now we're just

mixing metaphors, so that was step number one. So step two, take a tiny, just a tiny like little action that you want to kind of bake into your calendar and time.

[00:11:00] Start time blocking it into your calendar and diary. Find the time, find the space, put it in there regularly. Make it a habit.

Excellent. So how'd you go? Yeah. Uh, yeah. So, um, you've been working on commitments, haven't you?

The commitment therapy, working on drawing them back a little bit, being a bit more discerning with them for, uh, for one of my roles in life, I have to do like a fair bit of public speaking, right?

Like a fair bit of talking. Uh, and I want to do that well and, um, and I wanna get better and better at it. Uh, but it takes, like, it takes a fair bit of deep work, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, and so if I don't plan for that and schedule for it, 'cause it's deep work and 'cause I'm naturally like more of a. Social beast.

It's just easy for that time to get relegated to, you know, spare time left over time. Yeah. Okay. And then do you

find yourself doing like a crunch towards the end of the Yeah. Due? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's a great way to summarize my entire uni career. Okay. Lots and lots of late nights. All right. And, and early morning.

So I've gone to, um, taking like a standard average week, so I'm always thinking about it in terms of a template. Then blocking in hours at a time. So usually like two hour blocks dedicated. [00:12:00] And again, I probably only need like a couple, you know what I mean? Like to do it well, but two, two hour blocks. Okay,

nice.

A

week.

Um, so look for me, I looked at my diary calendar and I probably had two things that went on my mind. Uh, one I realized, wow, I do a lot of work. Like, you know, my calendar's pretty chocked full during the week. The thing I'm trying to get unstuck on is in terms of spending more time on my inner life and enriching my faith and spirituality.

But on the other hand, I thought about what do I have in my calendar? You know, looking at it from a strengths perspective. 'cause if you look at your overall life, you know, I've just got a heap of meetings and a whole lot of stuff that I do. But actually I, I'm pretty happy that I have a lot of the bits and pieces in place.

That I need. I eat, you know, dinner on a Monday night with our neighbors, and that's kind of a shared communal faith experience thing. You know, Sundays I have a gathering connect with my church. I have a prayer on Thursday mornings. I have a, have like monthly catchups with some friends. So I, I just have a number [00:13:00] of things in place and I'm like, actually, I think that's enough.

I think they're the right type of rhythm, so I didn't actually change much. So what I was thinking about is I was thinking about our pre-commitments and the idea that when you put time in your calendar, you are, you're like, uh, Ulysses, is it kind of tying yourself to the mask and saying, this is who I want to be, even if I don't feel like it, or even if my emotions kind of push me somewhere else.

I think what I've realized is I've done, I've put in pre-commitments years ago that are still the right rhythms. They're holding me true. Even though there's a wrestle in my inner life, the patterns and rhythms themselves are really helpful, so I'm just gonna continue. Mm.

It's almost as if you've, uh, yeah.

You've established those really helpful anchors.

Yeah. It's like a long time ago in a, in a different time of life, when there was motivation to put more energy into something, I created rhythms and patterns and I'm gonna keep the habits going 'cause they see me through. Mm-hmm. And that's a really helpful thing.

So Matt, let's just talk about a bit more of the [00:14:00] research. I mean, I think people do recognize intuitively that behavior is contagious and that, you know, we become who we spend time with. But, um, what are some of your thoughts around that? So this is like a, a mixture of thoughts, but largely like stuff though.

That

you and I have read, like, like going back to that research, which again, just I think largely confirms what most people kind of, um, pick up from their lived experience. Uh, so the first like really interesting study and this, this one was particularly good 'cause of its length, so it's, uh, longitudinal.

So I went for 32 year, uh, time span and it involved thousands of adults, uh, was undertaken by Harvard Professor Nicholas Chris and his associate James Fowler. And they kind of came up with the idea that behavior. And this is, this is, again, like, this is wild. It's spread, if you like, almost like a ripple effect through social ties.

Hmm. So it's contagious. Yeah, it's contagious. And, um, and not 'cause, and not 'cause like, it acts like a, um, a virus, but more, I think more to the point that humans, we are designed to be such social creatures and animals that so much of my behavior is influenced by what I [00:15:00] observe. And then. Pick up and imitate.

Mm-hmm. So it's a, you know, like, what do they say? It's often more caught than taught.

Mm-hmm.

So it's not even like conscious or explicit. It's not someone sitting me down and say, Hey Matt, you should think about doing da da. 'cause I do, and it works for me. It's more I observe you and if we close particularly I'm gonna observe you across multiple domains in life.

And I just, I'm always kind of, part of me is always discerning, do I like this? As in, do I think it's working out for Dan and then somewhere. That could work, maybe work out for me. I admire this trait, so I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna pick it up, try it on myself.

So, and almost your baseline of what is normal and healthy and right.

Yeah. Is shaped by those you're around. Yeah. If all your friends, I don't know. Hmm. Downloading movies illegally or I don't know, maybe, you know, stealing, stealing, I don't know. I'm thinking God now I've gone some heavy examples. If all your, if all your friends do a particular behavior, which Yeah. The therefore we kind of becomes socially normal.

Yeah, that's right. And therefore, while everyone does it, so I'll do it. That's right. Obviously the same is true with positive behaviors.

Exactly. Yeah. So, so yeah, so that's the, um, and that's a really important point, just [00:16:00] 'cause it's contagious and just 'cause I mimic it does not mean that it's good for me in terms of like, objectively, if you were an impartial observer, you'd say, Hey, that's really working out well for Matt.

One of the classic ones is around, um, obesity. So again, these guys found that if a close friend becomes obese, then um, a person's own risk of obesity is increased by 57%. Hmm. It's amazing. I know. Yeah, yeah. And like, and that sounds. That sounds so strong to me, like so potent. And that's been shown what with smoking, I think.

Yep. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Um, yeah, smoking. Um, and I think like, you know, the, the flip side being it's also had like if, if your friend becomes a runner for example, or starts to take exercise a lot more seriously, then again, like the, the flip side, the positive flip side is that you're gonna be a lot more inclined to take up some kind of healthy.

Exercise routine as well. Okay. Um, so again, it's the kind of thing that is mirrored, uh, in the science and the research that people find mirrored in their own personal, um, experience. Like going back to our good friends at bulk, so long term sponsors of the show. I know that, um, in their two, uh, facilities, so both [00:17:00] admin, uh, facility as well as their manufacturing plant, they've, um, they've installed gyms.

And so they've got really, really great gyms. They encourage all their employees to go and use those gyms, like whether it's, you know, nine to five, uh, or whether it's outside of hours. So they're always accessible as far as I know, like, you know, kind of any time. And I know, um, I've got a mate who works there and he said he kind of lapsed with his own gym habit.

I. Before starting there, but like, uh, you know, he's on the floor. He is working hard, so he is doing pretty hard physical labor every day, like on the man on the manufacturing floor. And he said like his mates there, come on mate, it's to hit the gym afterwards. Yeah.

Oh, that's so true. Like, I remember being in a hospital setting and every single day, like there was chocolates every day.

Yeah. Because you know, patients are always giving you chocolates and so I ate heaps and heaps of sugar. Because you just sit down and there's food there and habitually ate, uh, every single birthday someone brought cake, you know? So it just, it was conducive to bad eating. And then I worked in a different workplace, same job, you know, as, as a physio.

And yet this kind of group were just different. And [00:18:00] they swam competitively three times a week in the hydrotherapy pool. And I just did it because everyone else did. And then they swam on the weekends and people talked about fitness and. And I got healthier, you know, and it was just a clear contrast between two workplaces, um, both well-meaning, you know, and there were positives with the kind of social chocolate culture as well, but just not so good for my, um, health and pre-diabetes.

But that's just a social thing, right? Yeah. I, I've been trying to like, to think of how I best to kinda sum it up. And the closest thing to pithy that I've come up with thus far is that, uh, people make being a kind of person. Plausible. So like you surround yourself with people who swim three times a week.

So, so suddenly the idea of you being a, the kind of person who actually does that and you hadn't done 'em before, it becomes plausible. Mm. It becomes that, that bit more

realistic. Does, does it work A little bit. Uh, and I dunno the research in this, but, um, so I've got friends who run marathons and I, you know, I'm, I'm the type of guy that can run for five minutes at the gym on a treadmill, right?

So the idea [00:19:00] of a marathon doesn't actually inspire me. Like, I look up to these guys and think, well, that's cool that you can do it. Yeah. But I don't feel like I can do a marathon because so far distant from where I am. You, you want me to tell you how to do it? Yeah, maybe. Okay. Yeah. But what I'm, no, it's not so much that.

It's more like, I'm wondering if the gap between where you are. The people you're around needs to be somewhat close, not enormously distanced. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, so if I'm, I don't know, I'm 70,000 a year and I suddenly hang out with like millionaires, well, is that gonna motivate me to make money or am I just gonna feel bad?

So my,

my, my advice wasn't gonna be like personal coach on how to run a marathon. 'cause I've never actually done a ride, but. But my advice was gonna be, well, a, spend more time with that one person. Mm-hmm. And then find four of their mates as well. You like, and then spend a whole lot of time with all five.

And then I think, like seriously, eventually. Okay. So

you start by feeling bad, but then eventually you think, okay, maybe I could start running and then look,

you call it bad, I call like aspirational. 'cause like, 'cause like to some degree, like it's gonna be like a natural sorting effect, right? So a, um, you have to, you have to find the behavior or the lifestyle kind of, I [00:20:00] guess.

Um. Baseline appealing enough or the people baseline appealing enough that you start to spend a lot of time with 'em. Mm-hmm. So again, we're not talking about like distant social relations Yeah. As much as you're kind of nearest and dearest. And secondly, like going back to your second example. So Sure. I mean, in theory I could like start, if I started hanging out with five like millionaires, I'd probably start to feel really like, maybe like inadequate and feel bad.

Um, every time I was, um, you know, the round fell to me like to pick up the bill for drinks. Like that'd probably break me, right. But in reality. I think the question would be, well, Matt, would five millionaires suddenly wanna start hanging out with you? Yeah. So it probably works both ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a natural, like sorting, I think like in self selection. Yeah. Okay. So there is a

self-selection. Um, yeah. Okay. Uh, look, it's, it is an interesting question. I mean, I suppose particularly in the context of being stuck, if you're feeling stuck in life and you realize actually the five people around me are actually.

Probably reinforcing the stuckness of my life. We're not saying you should just ditch those friends. You know, there are, there are cases where, you know, particularly if you're struggling with, let's say, kind of, [00:21:00] I dunno, substance abuse, you might actually need to change social circles altogether. I've seen people do that.

Yeah.

You know, I've got a friend who actually had to leave one city, move to a different city to get out of kind of a Coke habit and, um. The bad Coke, not the, not the, not the cheap Coke solution wasn't just to switch to Pepsi. That's right. It wasn't just a Pepsi solution. And, and that was it. That's what he needed.

He needed to actually change context. Yeah. Because that gave him the motivation. So sometimes you have to change context, but, um, but at the same time, yeah, I suppose if you feel stuck, you know, maybe the question is, well, who is in your relational world that you're already friends with? Who you, you do think.

Could lift you up a bit or motivate you or inspire you or help you be a better version of yourself and how could you spend more time with that person or, or people in that relational world.

Exactly. Um, 'cause this series has been kind of, uh, or season, I should say. This season has been primarily focusing on, I.

If you feel stuck in one domain of life as opposed to kind of the totality of your life, feels like one great big puddle is stuck. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So again, you [00:22:00] shouldn't require, I've gotta change, I've gotta up peeve all my social relationships. Mm-hmm. To help address this one domain. It's more a case of my life is, feels completely stuck in every kind of area, and it really is.

Then maybe you've gotta, again, think about the radical shifts in terms of people and location and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But we are talking, we really are. We have been talking about. Particular domains.

So, Matt, let's get practical. Uh, you know, I think most people will admit or agree that our company shapes us, but. You know, we live in a very isolated, individualized world where so many of us are lonely, and it's just hard to even find time to spend time with others, let alone intentionally choose who's shaping you.

We've got a few principles. Uh, the first one is to choose your tribe wisely. Tell us a bit about that.

Choosing your tribe wisely is important because, um, it just, it's, it's going with your eyes open, knowing that the people, again, who, and [00:23:00] by tribe we mean people who you're gonna spend a fair bit of time with and who you count as close, right?

So these are the people you are voluntarily saying, I'm gonna allow them to influence me. Mm-hmm. So you wanna be. Like again, going into that with eyes open because if they don't share the same, lived out, not just aspiration, but actually like lived out values that are probably gonna be most, I guess like most kind of manifested in behavior mm-hmm.

Then they are gonna take you in a different direction. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And look, there's often a cost to choosing wisely. You know, I mean, I was um, chatting with my hairdresser just yesterday. She's from New Zealand and has built a business in Hobart, is smashing it and has got some great, you know, relationships here.

But there is a draw back to New Zealand. 'cause that's where her oldest and dearest friends are. Her kids are grown up, you know, and, and there's this sense where maybe I should move back because that's the tribe that kind of energizes me most and who I enjoy spending most time with. And I actually think that's really wise.

You know, when I, when I think about picking a job, I actually think too many of us choose jobs and [00:24:00] workplaces and cities based on. The wrong metrics. You know, will I get the right career? Will I kind of go up the corporate ladder? But actually, I think, like we've talked about before, you know. Who, who your oldest and dearest friends are who, who the people are in your life who are gonna influence you and influence your kids and make the biggest impact in your life.

I think they should be really significant factors in where you choose to live.

I guess what I'm hearing, uh, there's two things that are running parallel, but their intention I think as well. 'cause I've got, I'm sure you've got, I'm sure. Most people have got, I'm sure, old friends or old social connections.

Mm. Or even like calling family members. And again, like they're just, um, they've identified perhaps like different values that they're gonna live out to you. Right. So what we're not saying is that you wanna again, cut them off entirely. Yeah. But what we are talking about is that you need to choose a tribe wisely if you wanna reinforce and up the chances of desired behaviors.

Being [00:25:00] more frequent in your own life.

Mm-hmm.

So you won't get that from those particular old friends or family. That's what we're saying. Right. Because they're d Well, unless, well, unless

they're particularly helpful in terms of No. But motivating.

Yeah. Yeah. But if they're on a different page, then you won't get I they're on a different page.

Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, you don't wanna cut them off. Mm-hmm. I think the critical difference that, the thing that holds those two. Those two tracks in intention is time spent. So you can, 'cause again, all the research seems to say it's the five people, for example, or your inner tribe who you spend the most time with.

Yeah. Now you can have old friends and you can have like, uh, dear family members you've got a lot of history with and you don't wanna cut them off. And what you've got is special and unique like we talked about before, but. In reality, you're probably not spending a whole lot of time with them. You haven't cut them off.

You're not spending a whole lot of time with them. But the connection is so strong it, it doesn't rely on needing the same amount of time. Yeah. But if you wanna change something in your own life, particularly if it's a behavior, you're gonna need to, again, make sure that the, um, the people who you're spending the most time with are on the same page.

Yeah.

So, intentionally gravitate, particularly if there's an area of your life that you wanna [00:26:00] change, gravitate to someone who. It's probably a bit further ahead of where you'd like to be. You know, if, if it's finances, find someone who's actually doing really well financially and you can learn from, you know, those, those five millionaires.

Yeah. Those 5 million. Not so much to overextend yourself, but to actually, you know, if, if there's someone who's good investing mm-hmm. We'll let you spend time with 'em, you know, like, yeah. Yeah. Same with obviously fitness, friendship, spirituality, all the different areas we've talked about fun people and who are, who are more up and coming in the areas you wanna be and actually learn from them.

But just the

caveat or a caveat. The risk is, I think that we've almost, um, presented this in such a way, or it can be taken in such a way that either it comes across as, um, mercenary. So like find people who got, um, a desired behavior or trait or outcome that you want and just like zone in on them. That's the first.

So we're not saying that, right? It's, it's not that simple. We're not that Mercer, that's the first thing. And secondly, even if they got the same, you know, desired. Behavior or the same aspirations as you. If you are gonna spend a lot of time with 'em, then there's gotta be a whole bunch of other stuff that also falls into [00:27:00] place.

Like you just gotta, there's gotta be some natural like affinity there with them. Yeah. That you have to be the kind of people who you just like naturally like get along with as well. Yeah. That's where it kind of gets, yeah. So just so we're saying that just 'cause someone has the same values Yeah. It doesn't mean that you are gonna like click with them,

really.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There has to be a natural. Yeah, action point. So how would you start then, if, if, if, if someone feels stuck, they recognize that they need to spend more time with different people or even broaden their social networks because their current networks are continuing to reinforce their stuckness, what are some things you could do?

Yeah. Well, uh, how about we go from perhaps easiest. So more challenging. Sounds good. Okay. So easiest. So the easiest path would be if you've already identified one or two people in your life, um, who you do have like some good, you know, uh, friendship, connection with already or familial connection with already.

So you get along with 'em, right? Um, and they, so that's the first thing. Second thing. They exhibit this again, this desired behavior or [00:28:00] aspiration that you are trying to move towards. Mm-hmm. So, you know, like they're like, they've already got it. They're, like you said, they're a little bit ahead of you in that regard.

So those two crucial ingredients are in place. You get along with 'em, you've got a preexisting relationship, and they've got this value that you also value. Then simply like, turn up the dial on how much time you are spending with them. They're already in your life. So it's, you're not starting from scratch.

Right. Um, so just turn up. Shift things around again. Time block, more time with them. Yep. The second, the second, um, step. So a little bit more challenging. Still not like that difficult. I've been thinking about this. You may say, like wanna change like pretty drastically your diet and your level of physical activity and maybe, you know, you think, you know, like that intellectual capital that we talked about couple of episodes ago, I like to do more reading, for example.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um. So you could say all that kind of clusters around this general idea. So you can nest all those individual aspirations under the heading or, or in the bucket of self-development or self-improvement. You're not gonna get all those ticked off at once, and some of 'em are gonna be a bit more demanding [00:29:00] than others.

What you could do is find a group that's already existing. That is kind of adjacent to that stuff. So you find a group that has got some element of self-improvement.

Hmm. '

cause you know that if you join that group, so like say for example, you know, uh, you say, well if I I join a book club, then chances are I'll have some great conversations that are a bit more philosophical.

Yeah. For example. Right. Okay. And, but chances are, 'cause people are already part of that, of self-selected and they've got this idea of some degree of self-improvement, you're probably gonna find a couple of people in there who, if you said, hey, like, do you want to go swimming this, this weekend? They go, you know.

Yeah. Chances are, yeah, I, I would,

yeah. And look, obviously, even if that, in that book club example, you're picking particular types of books or particular types of people, so just, just you, you're naturally selecting Yeah. A growth in a particular type of area, just by nature of That's right.

In a particular kind of area, but it's.

Probably gonna be adjacent to other areas

and, and then that opens up avenues potentially, if you have an affinity to someone, you connect well with them. Yeah. To then start exercising with them or hanging out or gonna the park or [00:30:00] whatever it is.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So if you join like the CrossFit box for example, it's probably not far off saying to someone there, Hey, like, do you mind hanging out this weekend and we'll do some meal prep together?

Yeah,

that makes sense. And that's why I think even things like if you feel like you're struggling with friendships, full stop. Mm-hmm. You know, you don't wanna walk around saying, Hey, I need a friend. You wanna actually find something that you enjoy doing. And I think a great way is, you know, either sport, but another way is actually to serve.

Because when you start serving, you know, I don't know, you, you, you join a suit van, or Yeah. Or a kind of a service based club. You tend to find people who are, I dunno, wholehearted and generous and thoughtful because. That's what people do when they serve. Right. So then, like you said, you're adjacent to the types of people who then might become friends and open up different areas of

your life.

And then, um, like we know at least where we are based, I'm sure it'd be the same in any kind of, you know, um, bustling, cosmopolitan center like Hobart, um, there are like men's groups. Yeah. There are like women's groups as well again. And uh, as far as, as far as I'm [00:31:00] aware, you can roll up mm-hmm. And just like sit in the room and not.

Not be pressured to kind of have to spill anything, but you know, you're surrounded by a bunch of people, again, who want to, to some degree, evolve, develop. Yeah, that makes sense. But

the rub though, I would say is you can join a group and you can still kind of suck and suck and take from people you know whenever you join a group.

I do think that we need to become the type of people who can serve and give and listen and be generous. Even if we don't feel like we're that type of person that goes back to our previous episode, you know, act your way to being the type of person who cares for others, who is, who's thoughtful, who serves, who is generous, even if you don't feel like doing it, and by becoming that type of person well then you'll probably attract others who are like that and therefore reinforce that identity.

Yeah, that's good. So that's

the second option. Yep. And perhaps like the third And, uh, and most kind of challenging option. Um, it's gonna be something like along the lines of taking some of your financial capital. And paying for a very specific service. Hmm. And that specific [00:32:00] service is gonna mean that you've gotta be pretty transparent and perhaps vulnerable about what it's that you want to change.

Yeah. So there's time, there's roles where you wanna join a professional, well, you get professional counseling. Yep. Coaching, et cetera, et cetera.

Exactly. But probably, again, chances are that's gonna be like one-on-one or it's gonna be a small group, and which means you're gonna pay. More fraud upfront. And again, it's gonna be pretty much, well, we, we all know that you are here for this very specific thing that you feel stuck in.

Mm. Let's work on changing it.

One of the reasons I started the, uh, Spacemaker Dojo, which is kind of my online community where we meet every fortnight, because it's kind of low bar accountability and low bar support in that sense, you know, you can turn up where you, or you can choose not to, but there's this rhythm where people can turn up every fortnight.

And say, this is what I'm learning. This is what I'm working on. This is how I'm making space. This is what I'm gonna do next fortnight. And then the next fortnight they'll be asked the same question. What did you do? So I I, I just think that's again, an example of a professional setting where you can put yourself into a community and then grow and learn.

But there's lots of those types of examples around. Yeah. Yeah. [00:33:00] That's correct. So Matt, we've talked about traveling alongside others. We've talked about Jack and Jill going up a hill. We've talked about how mountains are easier to climb with others and the importance of accountability, but um, maybe we'll just have a pause for a moment like we always do, to give our listeners time and space to reflect on what it looks like for them to travel alongside others.

Uh, do you need to spend more time with some people and less time with others? Do you need to shift your own perspectives and just acknowledge just how much your context and environment shapes you? Uh, or is there something practical you need to take away from this conversation? Just pause for a moment and try to grab one thing that you can walk away with to travel alongside others.[00:34:00] 

Okay, so Matt, um, we always like to finish every episode of the space makers by getting practical. 'cause it's what you do that counts. It's so easy to hear information and to absorb information and to think about ideas. It's actually hard to do something we've been thinking about. How could we help people do something about traveling alongside others?

And there's so many options, right, from like getting a counselor [00:35:00] or a director.

We just spent like

probably half an hour going through a bunch of this joining a sports club, but like, we can't and we can't tell you what to do. No, that's right. It's so individualized. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. We do have one kind of, well, one idea which we think could work if you need a nudge in the right direction to help you with accountability.

So one idea

is that, um, is that you could ask someone. To watch or listen to this podcast course with you, right? So, um, that's gonna naturally bring up this idea of being stuck in a particular domain of life. It's gonna come up with some strategies as to how to like, go about trying to address that and eventually it's gonna get to this episode.

Um. So that could be a really good catalyst for just kind of like more naturally or perhaps less awkwardly having that initial conversation where you just introduce this idea of, I guess like mutual support.

Yeah. And I, I imagine it's a fairly easy, and you're having a coffee with someone and you to have been listening to a podcast that I like.

Yeah. But it's, you know, it's made me think because this season is about Yeah. You know, people who feel stuck in an era of [00:36:00] life. Mm. And the podcast kind of guides people through step by step how they might get unstuck. Yeah. This is what I've been thinking. Mm. And it could be a conversation. Yeah. But you know, as you said, even better, if someone else then listens to the first episode and you talk about it, you might even say, Hey, how about we actually That's right.

Listen to an episode each. Yeah. Have a coffee every fortnight. Yeah. Talk about what we did because it could actually help both of us to move forward and, and there's your accountability piece, there's your community piece. Yeah.

Like you're doing some healthy bundling there as well, I guess.

Healthy bun.

But we seriously, we did actually create this kind of structure so that. People could get unstuck together. Yeah, that's right. So use it. Yeah, that's right. Use it if it's kind of like a scaffolding that makes it easier for you to actually have those unnatural conversations that are a bit more meaningful and real.

Well, hopefully the podcast can be the scaffolding you need. You could even get a group of friends and say, look, let's have pizza or have dinner once every week or once a fortnight for the next. 10, 20 [00:37:00] weeks, how long that takes. Listen to an episode or watch an episode on YouTube. Mm. And, you know, talk

about it.

Uh, the only thing that we'd ask or that we'd actually demand is that you demand that everyone who turns up then has to share the podcast with one other person as well.

Oh, that's perfect. It could be like a pyramid scheme paid forward. I like it. Perfect.

Yeah. Uh, so regardless of. Uh, which way you go about it.

Our encouragement and our hope is that everyone out there who's listening finds someone who they can travel alongside, uh, with in this particular journey. And someone who they can, um, both encourage and be encouraged by to shift in the one area that they want to.

Yeah, because, um, if you go back to that x the coma that we talked about in episode one, you know when you feel like life's a fog, when you're in a hard stretch and you're finding things difficult.

We just don't want you to do it alone. Mm. You know? That sucks. Yeah. And while it can be hard to travel alongside others because you have to be vulnerable, and sometimes it's just hard to find people who are maybe mature enough or thoughtful enough [00:38:00] to give you that space, it's really worth the effort.

Because I think that's the only thing that can truly help you get over that mountain, at least, you know, with less pain and with a lot more enjoyment than traveling by yourself.

I think, and this is like, this is just like paraphrasing what you said, so I'm, I'm gonna give you credit for this. It may be hard to be, um, accountable and again, be vulnerable and, and take the risk of traveling alongside someone else, but it's gonna be harder doing it alone.

Be harder doing it alone. Hopefully people are making progress. But we're gonna wrap up next week by talking about the goal of the goal. I. Which is a fascinating concept by Dan Heath. We won't kind of ruin it now, but it's about working out what your actual goal is. Yeah. And we're gonna wrap up the whole podcast and unveil what we hope will be season four, uh, which is quite a different topic altogether, and you and I are excited about it.

But, um, until next week's final episode of Season three, make Space Next Space,

the Space Makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

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