[00:00:00] Hey there, space makers. I'm Daniel Sih, joined by my good friend and co-host Matt Bain. This is the third season of The Space Makers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life more than a podcast. This podcast course will help you get unstuck in one area of life. One step at a time by helping you shift the way you live and work.

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The space makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

Hi.

Welcome back everyone to the Spacemaker Podcast season three, where we are talking about how to make space to get unstuck for a surprising second act. And I'm here with my good friend and co-host, Matt Bain. Welcome back. Thank you, Dan. I'm very pleased to be here with you. Yeah. And the audience. Excellent.

[00:01:00] And, but we're gonna talk about one of the most simple, but. Profoundly i'd, I'd almost say life changing practices that people can do in their life. A practice that can help them regain control of their time, but also to align their values and their priorities with what they truly care about, which is the simple, but.

Helpful practice of time blocking. Time blocking. Great. Yeah. Time blocking is at, its very simplest about making sure your calendar and your preloaded schedule represents what you care about, and yet most people I spend time with, most people we work with don't actually do it that well. That's what we're gonna talk about.

And how to use time blocking to help you get unstuck.

Excellent, excellent. Um, just to clarify, 'cause I think like the term, the term when I first came across it was a bit misleading. Mm. But when we talk about time blocking, we're talking about something more than just a time management device or tool, aren't we?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, on the one hand it's as simple as actually saying, what do you wanna achieve in life and how do you make sure your time, your plan for how you use your time represents it. So [00:02:00] in that sense, it is a simple time management tool. But on the other hand. It's so much more than that probably because managing your time is actually about managing your life.

Yeah, that's great. I do like how, uh, Oliver Berkman in 4,000 weeks says that, you know, we get 4,000 weeks and that we don't manage time. Like we manage our money in the sense of, you know, you can manage your money, but I. Like the 45 minutes our listeners are listening to this podcast is 45 minutes of their life, they'll never get back.

Yeah. Like the time is your life. Do you know what I mean? It's

a, it's a finr resource. It is a finer resource. You can't really make more of

it. And, and actually what you do with your time actually ends up being who you are as a person and the life you live. So yeah, in that sense, managing your time is about managing your habits.

It's about managing your values, your relationships, and your life. And that's why having some practical skills in this space. Actually is really important.

Excellent. I like that. I like that. 'cause, uh, I think it's important just to kind of, again, like make the point. This is not just if you, like, this is not just a productivity hack.

You're talking to a productivity consultant. Just,

just a productivity,

just a productivity hack. Hey, I [00:03:00] never

call you a productivity hack. Uh, but I look managing your calendar, it's not, it's not a sexy topic. You know, no one wakes up and says, oh, I'm really excited today. I get to listen to a podcast about calendar meeting.

Well,

I know one person who does. No, except for me,

except for me, the productivity hack. Uh, but seriously, um, what we do with our time. So important. And, uh, if you can pre-think the type of person you want to be, uh, you know, the type of relationship you wanna have with your partner or spouse, the type of relationship you wanna have with your kids or best friends, uh, the type of actions you wanna do at work and how you wanna actually achieve things with your life.

Uh, you know, these things matter. And so we're gonna talk about how to preload. Your commitments and we're gonna talk about how to actually activate what you wanna do in your life using your time.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. So this is a great way, or, or a great tool to help, um, turn intentions into actions.

Absolutely. And in [00:04:00] that sense, how does it fit with this broader conversation about getting unstuck?

Yeah, so last week we talked about. Acting our way into new ways of thinking. Mm. So in relation to unstuck, we talked about, um, we talked about trying to land on one tiny habit that you can perform consistently.

Mm. That is gonna be con, that is gonna be in a chord with getting unstuck in that domain of life that you've identified. Mm, yeah. And so this relates as in like this idea of time blocking relates to that. Because one thing that you may time block as in. Make a future commitment with yourself and your calendar to dedicate time towards something.

The thing that you are, that you are dedicating time towards may be that tiny habit. Mm-hmm.

Makes sense. And, and in fact, if, if for many of us, if we don't think about when and where we're gonna do that tiny habit, well then it never becomes a reality. It just

remains an intention. Yeah. Like a good intention.

Yeah.

And so this is the secret of, I suppose, time blocking in that sense is the activation of your good intentions, like you've said.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so how do we [00:05:00] forge into new action, which is where we're at. In the pod course, but how do we use practical skills to help us get there? Yeah, so if you stick around to the end of the episode, we're gonna get very practical and give you some skills to do a time audit and to start doing a regular, repetitive time block in your own life, in line with what you truly want to achieve.

So Matt, we are now up to episode eight in our podcast. We call them a podcast, not a podcast because we're actually trying to take people from, you know, A to, I dunno, A to Z, or as I said before, maybe A to B or C. But we want to take you somewhere. And, uh, that's why we structure our episodes in a very specific way, and we're structuring it around an acrostic called the Shift Framework, maybe inspired by a tagline, shift the way you live and work.

But, um, the s. Stands for selected domain. So pick an area of life you wanna change. H stands for harness your strengths. So focus on what works and not what [00:06:00] doesn't. The I is imagine multiple paths. So imagine multiple ways to change if you feel stuck. Uh, the F, which is where we're at now, is about forging ahead with action.

Basically, we're at the pointy end of the stick, which is. If you don't do something different, you can't get unstuck. So how do you change your actions? Uh, and next week we're gonna talk about travel alongside others, and we're gonna wrap it up with a really interesting activity around picking the goal of the goal for the very last episode.

Oh, cool. But what was our activity from

last week? A great question, Dan. So we asked, we asked people to consider and land on one. We, we call 'em tiny habits. So one tiny action that they can implement. Again, hopefully consistent with the. Area or domain of life they want to get unstuck in. And this tiny uh, this tiny behavioral change has to be able to be undertaken consistently and ideally, like over the long term to help form a habit that's gonna move people in the right direction.

So what did you end up doing? Yeah, so, uh, just by way of quick reminder, uh, [00:07:00] the, the area that I'm trying to get unstuck in is consistently letting people down by over-committing. To different causes, events, you know, that kind of thing. I need to get unstuck in terms of just, you know, being able to better manage my time and particularly commitments for the sake of other people primarily.

So we talked a bit about that and one, like one tiny habit that I'm hoping to implement, see what you think about this. I. Because I don't think it's ideal, but I think, anyway, I'll, I'll, I'll let you decide. I want to, when someone asks me, like to sign up to something, like to do something, you know, to commit to something, I want to get into the habit of just being able to say to them politely and simply, can I get back to you in 24 hours?

I want to be able to just buy some breathing room. Mm-hmm. And space. Now I know this, let's, so let's not take this to extremes. Like if we were already hanging out, like we have a break between podcast episodes and say, Hey, do you wanna grab a coffee? I wanna say, sorry, Dan, just gimme 24 hours and then I'll be able to come back to you.

Yeah. But anything that's actually a commitment, anything that's, yeah. Substantial.

Yeah. I think's a, I mean, it's a great [00:08:00] strategy. Okay. I've actually got a, an ebook, which you obviously haven't read, got how to say No for a greater guess, and one of the eight. Strategies for how to say no, like a pro? Yeah. Is the, let me get back to your strategy.

Okay. Which is exactly what you've just said.

Yeah. I look so I'm not claiming that, that that was like an original idea. Oh no, no, I'm not. You've probably been some kind of subconscious influence. I still to someone

else as well. No, no, it's a great idea. 'cause what you're doing is you're preloading. Mm-hmm.

A uh. Uh, a response. Okay? Yes. Now, obviously you can change the wording, but essentially you are buying yourself time. Yeah. Uh, Steven Kobe talks about wanting to create a gap between stimulus and response. So someone says, Hey, Matt, I'd really, you know, do you wanna come and I don't join this underwater hockey club?

And you're immediately going, I'd love to do that, but hey, I need some time to think about it. Let me get back to you for 24 hours. So it becomes a habitualized response. And then you can now think from your prefrontal cortex, not your kind of relational. Fear-based limbic system. And actually, I was gonna

say my, my over abundant, generous passion at heart.

Sure. Let's go with fear-based limbic. Let's go [00:09:00] with fear-based limbic system.

You're over abundant heart. Does that make sense? Sense? You're all romantic. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. And it's a tiny habit, although you'll have to practice it.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I will. I will. I'd say it's simple but not easy. I think that's a really good example.

Okay. And, um. Yeah, why not? Hmm. Okay. We'll see how we go.

Uh, yeah, so look for mine, I've been stuck in an area around, it's all of the internal stuff, which is super hard to explain on a podcast 'cause a lot of the changes are about the way I'm framing the world, uh, and my actions in it. But yeah, you know, I suppose learning how to express my faith, my belief in a new context for me, and look, the tiny habit, I suppose.

I don't know if it's, again, it's simple. It's not easy, but I've been thinking a lot about. Letting go and just letting go of the need to know what the future looks like in terms of how I express my faith and spirituality and not have to, you know, not having to control it, but I suppose have faith that, you know, using my language that God is with me and that I'm being guided along the way.

And so, um, there was actually [00:10:00] a poem that, um, I read from Dr. Julia Vidal and she has this tiny poem and she wrote it about faith, but also about. The passing of her husband has said, um, I surrender my breath to God of the universe. That was a simple poem, and, uh, since I've been doing cold showers every morning and I actually am a bit breathless in the shower, I've actually been saying that that's the cold shower is not a tiny habit, but the actual saying, I surrender.

I don't know my worry about this work, or I surrender my fear about money, or I surrender my need to control this situation. You know, uh, I've, I've been saying that little kind of poem every day and I've been finding it really helpful just to start each day with giving up something that I could be attached to and hold onto.

Uh, and that's also helped me feel a bit less stuck in terms of being okay with not knowing the way forward in terms of my faith journey right now. Mm-hmm. But still an act of faith.

Yeah. [00:11:00] That's great. Love the fact, obviously, in terms of the mechanics and know it's a pretty commute, like seen as a bit of a, you know, a crude word when we're talking about, so life, spirituality, but the mechanics of having that associated or bundled with Yeah.

I even bundle my Yeah, yeah. It's true. It's true. Well, I mean, have the shower, right? So it's just, you know, it's a nice, so you're gonna have a shower every day. Yeah. And it's, I'm literally breathless. It's like a hyper, like I surrender

my breath,

it's a hyperventilating prayer, it's great, and

then I surrender other things.

Yeah. And a short. So like in terms of this, because if you had to memorize something like, and it was difficult, that'd be, again, that wouldn't kind of meet the simple criteria that we kind of, it wouldn't be tiny anymore in terms of the consistency or the frequency. It's daily, which is great.

Yeah. And look, it's a different spiritual practice as, as you might use that term than some of the other ones I've used in the past.

Yep. And you know, it's helping me maybe rediscover fresh ways to, you know, express my. Love for God, a love for others. Yeah. In that sense,

I think plenty of people will be able to relate to that. Maybe not, uh, precisely, [00:12:00] but um, yeah, much like we talked about in season two. I think if once you hit a particular stage of life, so to speak, you realize that there's some stuff, there's so much stuff that you gotta let.

Go off. Mm-hmm. Particularly so that theme of control, use the word control to start off with really, really, really, really pertinent and like, and I'm sure we talked about this in season two. It's like, well either kind of willingly give that up. Mm-hmm. Lay it down, shrug it off, whatever. Or chances are it's gonna be forcibly taken away from me eventually.

That's true. I'm, I'm good at picking stuff up. Yeah. I don't find it as easy to let go. So it's a good practice for me. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So diving into today's subject matter, time blocking, I've read like a little bit about it. I've heard it, uh, referred to as time blocking as well as time boxing. Mm. Different times. I'm really keen to find out whether you think they refer to the same thing. Just like two ways of kind of, uh, describing it.

And I've, you know, I've kind of had a go at it. As [00:13:00] well, like personally with some, uh, some success. But I'd be really keen to hear you give us like your kind of, you know, comprehensive overview of it. Well, I would, 'cause like you spend more time, like in that space, you are, uh, like a productivity expert and I know more to the point you've been a adherent to it for some time now.

Yeah, so I definitely time block myself. I'd say where my expertise comes in. I mean, because look it, it's not that complex an idea. Mm-hmm. When you want to do something that matters, make sure it's in your calendar. Like it kind of is as simple as that. There's lots of different terms and there's lots of different words, but let's not make something more complex than it is just like, you know, exercise you.

That means you need to kinda get your heart rate up, you know, just similarly like time blocking. You need to actually work out what you wanna achieve and put in your calendar. Where I think my expertise comes in is I've actually coached and trained like. Thousands of senior leaders and I've seen what they do.

Mm-hmm. And this is where I think it's fascinating the difference between those who time block and those who don't. So let's talk about time blocking at work and then maybe we'll talk about [00:14:00] pre-commitments later on and how it relates to life. 'cause this isn't just about work, but work does matter. There was a study by William Pounds in MIT, which I really like, and he was, he was looking at managers and leaders and trying to ask, well, how do you determine what.

Matters or how do you determine what priorities are in your work life? And so we asked lots of CEOs and executives, okay, well what do you need to achieve in the next year? Or What risks do you need to solve? And William Pounds and his team basically said that most senior leaders can give you a pretty accurate description of what the future look like, what looks like, what they need to achieve.

Okay? But then. Uh, the team looked at the calendars and spoke to the executive assistants of those leaders and looked at how they used their time. And I think, I'm not quoting verbatim, but, uh, William Pound said, now, on no occasion did any manager's calendar, or did any manager use their time in a way that represented what they said mattered.

Okay. And I've spoken to thousands of leaders now and shared that study and almost everyone [00:15:00] agrees that we say this is what matters to us. You know, if I did this at work, if I built this culture, if I spent time with these people, if I wrote these documents or wrote this book, then that would truly make a difference in my work.

And then what they do each day is you away up your inbox. You get distracted with teams or slack messages. Uh, you go from meeting to meeting to meeting, often doing small operational things and, and the tiny slivers of time that you have left. You know, maybe the time confetti that you have, you try to actually squeeze in what you think are.

Goals that truly matter to you. And that's how the majority of workers are working at the moment. And it's a complete disaster for how you work. I mean, does, does that make sense? It does. It does. And appreciate

the term time confetti. You haven't heard that

before, con. That's increasingly It is time confetti.

Literally, if you look at someone's time and how they click their mouse between teams messages and email, or how they move from meeting to meeting, there is literally just fragments of time remaining. That's good. And so the. Alternative is [00:16:00] to actually say, well, if I have an open unstructured calendar and all I put in are meetings, well then you're gonna end up with time confetti and you won't actually achieve your goals.

What the best leaders do is they time block, they each, each week, they might say, well, these are the five tasks that are most important that will most represent the longer term goals that I wanna achieve. And they work out how much time is required for each of those tasks. Maybe 45 minutes, maybe two hours.

And they put it in their calendar and they make a, basically they make make a meeting with themselves, which is what the time block is. But it's not a vague year, two hours of. Time blocking, uh, or two hours of deep work as Kanye Fort might say, you know, you'd, you'd say, I've got two hours to write the summary of episode nine of the space makers, you know, season three, like, it's like very distinctive, specific, uh, and, and so therefore when you hit that particular period of time for that day.

Well, that's what you need to do. Just like if you're in a [00:17:00] meeting with others, you're in a meeting with yourself, and obviously there's skills and practices to achieve those time blocks, but the very fact that you've got it in your calendar is a good start. And if it's not in your calendar, well then it's not a priority.

It's not a simple practice, particularly when people don't have any space in the calendar, but it's a super important one. One practical bit of advice, which I've found helpful is most people won't be able to find two hours of spare space in their calendar with one week's notice, particularly if you're at a senior level.

Uh, and so therefore, how can I do that task that really matters when it takes me two hours of concentrated effort? So therefore, it's probably important to actually work out how much time do you need each week? As an approximate in terms of focus concentrated work, preload them as a regular occurring time block.

You know, two hours on a Monday, two hours on a Friday, maybe one hour on a Thursday. Make it a regular occurring meeting with yourself and just call it deep work or you know, time blocking, but the week before, [00:18:00] as you plan those tasks for the week. That's when you wanna fill those particular blocks with particular activities, but at least you've given yourself the space in the first place by saying, these are non-negotiable times.

These are meetings, I can't book over them. So it

sounds like kinda, I had two, two key criteria from that. Number one, when it comes to the particular activity that you are booking the time in for, have a pretty real realistic idea as to how long that will take. Hmm. And number two, for each of those activities.

Don't keep it vague or general. So I want some idea in my head as to what it will look like once I finish that activity. Like an end point, a goal. So it's not open-ended, it's not just I'm gonna work, you know, for two hours on and just try to make progress on this thing. But at the end of two hours, I'm hoping to have like, um, hammered out, say 3000 words.

Yep. On this bit of creative work that I'm, that I'm doing. You know, or have Yeah, exactly. Or have like the meeting agenda. Finished and completed.

Yep. So you've totally smashed both of those examples I think are really, really true. We really struggle [00:19:00] to determine how long things take, and so by time blocking and regularly committing to how much time things will take, you start to realize how much you underestimate how long tasks take, and therefore you become more accurate in predicting.

And the second thing is totally breaking it down to a specific goal in a specific time segment. So that's kind of along the tiny habits line as well. Yeah. You know, you might have a massive project, what is the next 30 minutes or one hour or one and a half hour chunk of that project, and how can I be committed to completing that in a particular amount of time?

So that's what time blocking looks like in a work context. There's lots of different ways to build on that and iterate it, but essentially it's book a meeting with yourself, work out what matters, and make sure that when I look at your calendar, I'll be able to say, Hey, this is what matters to Matt and these are his priorities because they're represented in your calendar in terms of how you use your time.

I will make sure of that.

So Matt, we've got a great quote [00:20:00] from the legendary cow Newport who, you know, we're both a fan of in terms of productivity and his authorship in that space.

He's a time

blocker

extraordinaire.

He's a time block extraordinaire. Uh, I learned a lot from him, but, um, what's one of his quotes about this to finish?

Yeah. So he writes, this may actually come from his time blocker. I think so it's time, time block. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Time of planner. Yeah. Uh, he writes, instead of trying to generally be productive, you petition your time into blocks and assign specific work to them. This critical shift from managing tasks to managing time can massively increase the amount of useful work you accomplish.

Mm-hmm.

And that's the shift, isn't it? You do need a task management tool. We also need to actually start to shape and predict our time, especially in whirlwind environments where people say they've got no control of their time, but there's really no choice. You either control your time and start to take back control of it, or you end up just at the mercy of whatever time confetti gives you.

Yeah. That's if someone else will control it for you. Yep.[00:21:00] 

Yeah. So Matt, let's talk about time blocking, not just in the work context, but let's talk about it in terms of life, because if you're stuck and you need to make a shift in your habits, well, obviously it's not just gonna be in a work context. So how do you use time blocking to make space for what really matters?

One quick caveat, please hang around to the end of this conversation and discussion. 'cause near the end we are gonna be kind of covering stuff like spontaneous time and the idea of freedom and all that kind of stuff as well. 'cause I know this can sound almost a little bit kind of to a personality like mine.

Like thinking about time blocking in your personal life can sound like a little bit restrictive to start off. A very structured,

very rigid, yeah. Bad enough in work to feel like you have to actually. Kind of segment your time into specific fragments. Yeah. Or, you know, to be incredibly planned in how you use every moment of your day.

Like, that's hard at work, but we don't want that for your life.

So I wanna start, um, and again, this largely comes from the work of, uh, near Isle, [00:22:00] the author, uh, speaker, productivity coach.

Yeah. I met him in Sydney a few months ago. Yeah. And so there's a great interview where he talks about, uh, how to get undistracted.

Yeah. Uh, and he cites the famous tale of Odysseus or Ulysses. Depending upon which translation you read. Um,

oh, I dunno which translation I've read,

but yeah. So, okay. So, so I do see as like a Greek hero from, uh, from some of their founding myths. Uh, he's on the way back from the Trojan War trying to make his way home to Ithaca, um, and be reunited with his wife, uh, wife and child and so on the way, uh, he and his.

Um, his homeboys, like they're on the ship, so they're sailing right. And they're going past this famous spot that he's familiar with. And the spot is famous because it is, uh, this little bit of coast land is inhabited by the infamous sirens. Hmm. So this is where we get, you know, the term siren song and pop in popular culture.

Yeah. And Al McPherson, I saw that movie. Yeah, no doubt. So this is where we get the idea of siren songs in our pop culture. So these sirens, um, I think female. [00:23:00] I had beautiful voices and they'd sing these songs. And these songs were so powerful to passing sailors that they would like literally always that exception jump overboard and swim to the sirens and face their, doing their, like they'd be killed, um, on the rocks, or they'd steer their entire ship towards the sirens.

They get closer and closer to the songs and they'd be dashed on the rocks, et cetera. Those evil

rock songs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Evil rock music, right? Boom. Yeah. Uh, so Ulysses. He's familiar with all this, right? And so f the first thing he does is tell his crew, here's what you're gonna do.

You're gonna put like a bunch of wax in your ears so you can't hear this. 'cause if you hear it again, we're gonna be steered there, we're gonna die. Da. Um, but Ulysses again, like canny character that he's is, is also thinking, you know, this would be a great opportunity to have my cake and eat it. I reckon I can afford to hear the song and yet not be like, lured to my death if I get these guys in advance.

To bind me to the master, the ship, and they keep on sailing straight past, [00:24:00] whilst I'll be able to enjoy the siren song without jumping overboard. Yeah, so he works out what his values are, like what he wants. He wants to be able to hear the song, but at the same time, he doesn't wanna be mastered and lured to his death from it.

So he predicts the problem in advance. He bridges the problem in advance. And also comes up, commits to a solution that is gonna limit him in the future, but it's gonna allow him to be spared. He includes others in the plot as well. He does. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, he does. He, so they bind him up, they go past, he hears it, no one else can.

And he's begging his man like, unti me. Untidy, unti. So you know, he's feeling that conflict, like the tension, but they obey him and they don't, and they all pass through it in safety. But he got what he wanted. He heard the song.

So what does that have to

do with time blocking? I trust our audience. I reckon they've read between the lines here, right?

They're, they're, they're, they're a smart bunch. So the idea is, again, with time blocking, you are working out where you want to go. Yeah. In advance. So again, you, you're committing to some path that's, that's gonna involve action. Maybe even some tiny habits, but you're also realizing that in the future, there's every chance you're gonna get distracted.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So you'll be pulled off task. Yeah. [00:25:00] There's

part of you that doesn't wanna do it. Yeah. Part of you or wants to do something else. Yeah,

that's right. That's right. Particularly if it's not relatively like if, if, if it's gonna involve some pain. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, n says, like, Ulysses, what you do.

In your diary is you make a pre-commitment that therein, uh, like sometime your future self at that time has already decided you were preloaded what it is that you are gonna do. So immediately you've carved out the time and immediately if you stick to that, then you're not overthinking it again. 'cause you've made, you've already done the hard work of how am I gonna spend at this time?

And you've made some kind of commitment to yourself by putting it in the diary. Mm-hmm. But he also goes like a step above and beyond that. Right. So just putting it in your diary, blocking out the time. That's a good start. But he says like, and again, he kind of, he kind of like divs up. All the goals that I'm going for are either goals to be less distracted Yep.

By something, or I want to get more involved in something. So there's something I want to develop. Well, there's a relationship that I I that I wanna invest in my personal life. So think hobbies, think relationships in. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So he calls them distraction and traction and Yeah. Yeah. Distraction is what you don't [00:26:00] want.

And traction is what you do

want, do want. Yeah, that's right. So moving towards more and more traction and moving away from distraction. So he says, you know, you can make these. Time commitments to yourself so you can time block both to do things that will help you avoid distraction and also things that are gonna, are gonna enhance traction and take you further towards the things that you actually wanna focus on.

So can you give an example?

Uh, so like, we are working on a podcast together. And so for hypothetical Yeah. For hypothetical, right? And so, so. I could say, Hey Dan, listen, just let me, um, do this remotely from home by myself, right? And I'll work on this, on this podcast episode. And I know, right? 'cause I'm so, I'm highly distractable the drop of a hat, right?

Just any shiny new novel thing get me off track. So I should time block. So that's a good start. So I time block, I put the time in my calendar, two hours to work on podcast, the smart play. Then to avoid distraction would be to add to that, do this with Dan. At his house in the same room.

Ah, that's why you keep visiting me.

So that's why Yeah. You actually work together. Oh, that's good. [00:27:00] Yeah. Stop you being distracted. It's

not 'cause you great coffee. So, yeah. So, right. So that, that way there's like, there's a, there's a commitment that I made to myself. Yeah. A pre-commit. There's also a social contract. Even just if it's unstated, it's implicit.

But I've made that with you too. Right. So if we're in the same room, I'm not just gonna be sitting there and wirelessly surfing the net. It's gonna be you and me talking and working in real time. So that helps me avoid distraction. That kind of pre-commitment in terms of like traction, if there's a relationship in my personal life.

So say like, I wanna spend more time with one of my sons, right? So again, this could sound like, like relatively kind of, um, mercenary, I guess, or a bit kind of, uh, too, like rigid, but life's busy. He's getting busier and busier, like the older, he gets more hobbies and blah, blah, blah. I'm getting busy too. So I think, okay, I'm gonna preload my calendar.

So make a prior commitment with him to kind spend. Time with him. Hopefully, you know, for the sake of make it easy. Mm. On a regular, consistent same time and basis. Yeah. Okay. So what

you wanna do is I want more time with my son. Mm. But just 'cause we're under the same roof, it doesn't mean we're gonna have great quality time on a regular basis.

[00:28:00] That's right. Yeah. So I'm gonna think about, I'm assuming what type of activities Yeah. That he might like with you and vice versa. 'cause he was a teenager. Yeah. And then I'm gonna work out how can I regularly and. That's right. On a recurring basis. Yeah. Time in my calendar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a, like a meeting with my son.

Yeah. But you know, it is more about managing yourself, not your son. Yeah, that's right. So that you've preloaded the time to even, even if it's like, Hey, I'm spontaneously kicking a footy with you. Mm-hmm. Once every week. Yeah. You are loading your habits through putting in your calendar, even if it might not be in your son's calendar.

This is being both kind to myself and him. 'cause it means every week I'm not taking this intention and having to work out how I'm gonna fit it in. Yeah. Week after week. Right. Which requires mental energy. Yeah. Plus

also just life gets in the way.

Yeah, that's right. So and and also it means that say, you know, we've booked in some time regularly on a Wednesday night.

Seven to nine. If someone calls me up, a mate calls me up at six 30 and says, Hey, I've got this spare ticket to go see this great band. You want to come Then instead of having to think, oh, do I, do I want to, I can think, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hang on. You know, lemme think

about it for 24

hours. [00:29:00] Yeah, that's good.

Wow. What kind of guides say that anyway? Yeah, so, so there and then I could say, look, I've already made this. Prior commitments to myself, to my son. It's in the calendar. Like we're all prepared for it. It just makes it easier.

Yeah, absolutely. And so, look, what I like about the Ulysses Pact and what I like about that idea of, uh, pre-commitments from near aisle is, I mean, he hasn't said anything differently in terms of like the, the practice is still Sure.

Think about what you wanna achieve, put it in your time calendar on a regular recurring basis in advance. So it's the same idea, right? Mm. But I suppose it gives you a deeper sense of why this works Yeah. And why it matters, particularly in your social life. Yeah. You know, I've used time blocking in that sense to like, I have regular date nights with my wife.

Mm-hmm. You know, I'm not trying to manage my wife. I'm not trying to manage like our relationship. I'm just saying that I, I know with kids in a busy life, I don't get enough time, quality time with her. And so we both value quality time with each other. Yeah. So we preload a fortnightly date night. Yeah. You know, uh, it's the same with Yeah.

You know, I actually go to banjos with my kids and [00:30:00] do a. Dad day, kind of, I rotate, you know, one child with me every week. So it's, it's that same type of idea. Dad and Donut, dare you. And I think you and Donuts, I think you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, and, and, and other kind of things like that. Yeah. Outside of the work realm, obviously.

Yeah.

Yes. Really important. I think, at least this is how I like to kind of, I guess, get clear about what it is. In my head, this isn't about generating intentions, so we're not, we're not time blocking to generate the intention or the desire to wanna, or the motivation. Yeah, that's right. That's right. It's, it's actually helping out.

So that intention is preexisting as it should be. Mm-hmm. We, again, are just like enhancing the chances of it actually being followed through with. Turning into action and behavior.

Yep. And that's exactly the same in the work context, right? Mm-hmm. You know, my intention is I want to, I know, write great presentations and I know complete my strategic plan.

Mm-hmm. And the projects within it, the difference is if I don't have it as regular time blocks in my calendar, well then I don't have the ability to find the time to progress those projects. Yeah. Which might take me months, but I have to chip away the [00:31:00] week after week after week. Mm-hmm. It's exactly the same in that life context.

Yeah. Uh, so we've talked about the mechanics of time blocking. Mm-hmm. We've talked about why it works from a pre-commitment perspective, maybe we should kind of have a break and reflect on, you know, what stands out to people. But then let's have a conversation about, well, how does it work from a spontaneity point of view?

Yeah. And how do we kind of understand this mechanical understanding of shaping our time compared to what does it look like to actually kind of just. B,

that'd be good.

Yeah. So let's pause for a moment. Have a reflect on this idea of time blocking. Do you need to time block more at work? Do you need to time block more in life?

But probably more importantly, you know, who are the people that you wanna spend more time with or yourself? You know, I. What type of self-care activities do you need to do on a regular basis to invest in your own life, whether it be exercise or mental health, et cetera, or in your work context, what might look like to actually put time aside for what truly matters in a regular way?

Essentially, [00:32:00] how might you use time blocking to achieve your goals?

So hopefully that was helpful. Kind of silence to reflect on time blocking for yourself in your work or life context. But, um, there is some pushback, at least, you know. [00:33:00] For both of us. I think in terms of overly structuring our time and you know, when to use time blocking to benefit us, but when to, you know, be wary of time blocking.

I suppose. When I interviewed Nia, who, you know, obviously has written a lot on pre-commitments, you helped me write a question and I ran out of time to ask him and I was kicking myself 'cause I always wanted to, but he literally had to run. So do you wanna read the question that we were gonna ask n and uh, we might.

Maybe hypothesize what he would've said. Sure. Uh, the question was,

your work as in NI's work emphasizes responsibility, making time for your values, reflecting on your week, focusing on inputs over outputs, and living in line with a chosen identity. But is there room. Beyond scheduled time for serendipity, providence, or benevolent chaos, could too much precision and rigid time management limit us to only what we can predict or control.

Hmm. So clearly we can't speak for Nia. I would love to know his answer to that question, but tell me about why you wrote [00:34:00] the question.

Yeah. Uh, because a, my natural personality just detest on a bad day, lows time blocking, and being that, like, that Richard and Timetabled like part of me, just like I kick against that.

So that was like certainly so, so right from the get go, I can see its benefit and I value it and, and I'm trying to do a more and more, particularly in my, in my work life, but I still don't find it easy. And, you know, reflecting upon that, some of it is personality, but I think a lot of it is this, you know, if I reflect on my own history, uh, for example.

Um, there I can see like these pivotal moments or crossroads or things that I've been, I've benefited from, been blessed with. And by that kind of almost like just dropped on me. So they took, they involved, no intention, no planning, no. Self-directed control from me. Hmm. So there's

a spontaneity or a serendipity or something.

Yeah. Yes. Life happens. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And you can't predict it. Yeah. Yeah, it can't predict it. So, and like the word [00:35:00] detest, sorry's, right. It's a strong word, right? Hyperbole. Right. It was probably, simple's a strong word. So it obviously means that you, you have strong feelings about the idea of overly controlling or structuring your time.

Yeah. But it sounds like the why behind that, if, if I've heard you correctly, is that you don't wanna miss out. On the good, exciting, serendipitous events that life can throw at you. Yeah. By controlling and structuring and mechanizing your time so much. Yeah. That you miss out on the life that happens around it.

Yeah. Is that kind of what I'm hearing?

Yeah. There, there, there's, yeah. So there's that, and I think the second element, and I'll be a lot more brief this time round, is I, I don't see let, I personally believe that. A lot of what I should be doing with my life is probably gonna involve inconveniences and and interruptions.

Hmm. So it's gonna be primarily people like crossing my path or needs crossing my path that I, again, wouldn't have picked, wouldn't have timetable, wouldn't have kind of actively sought out. But in hindsight, I've probably benefited and grown from being involved and trying to [00:36:00] do what I can. To help and assist in those situations with those people and those interruptions.

Um, as opposed to trying to do everything in my power to keep them at bay mm-hmm. And say, no, look, I've got a better handle as to what's going on here. So I'm gonna get in, control my life and my time really rigidly and start to view those interruptions as just being annoyances.

So I can see that as well, that, um, relationships are by their very nature interruptible or interrupting.

Yeah. And disruptive. And flexible and adaptive. And so how do you. Give that space for the people who need it when our time's so hard to manage. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. Like you have completely the opposite personality to me, so I find that very helpful. Mm. To hear what the pushback might be. I've probably come at it at quite a different, I.

Like with a different perspective. Mm-hmm. And for me, I come from completely opposite perspective where I just, I, I've always loved shaping my time and planning and having ticked lists and like, I suppose that's how I feel. I'm very goal oriented, very task oriented, not so [00:37:00] people oriented. Mm-hmm. So, you know, again, that's, mm-hmm.

That's the pros and the cons that come with different personality types. Uh, we, we both had a mentor, you know, Darren, who once said that. What'd he say? Sometimes the best way to have spontaneity is to plan it. Yes. Do remember him saying

that? Yeah. Yeah. I remember you

remembering. Kinda said that He did.

And uh, and unbelievable. I always found that fascinating. 'cause what he was saying is our lives are so busy and our lives are so full that if we don't plan or create space where spontaneity can happen, then we'll be so distracted or so interrupted or so full that there won't be the ability to. Um, say drop something can, I don't know.

So yeah. For someone to ring and say, Hey, yeah, you, you wanna hang out tonight? Yeah, well, you, you can't because you've, you, you just, you're so chaotic or so busy that you can't be spontaneous. So he, he was suggesting, uh, a different type of time blocking, but where you actually create enough. White space in your calendar where you can be spontaneous, but that also means you have to be super structured and organizing the time where you [00:38:00] work.

And that's what I've found. Uh, cow Newport again would say that time blocking. In an ideal world, let's say a utopian world shouldn't exist because we shouldn't have the type of work pressures or workflow. Where we actually have to force ourselves to be rigid and ruthless with our time. But the reality is the world as it is with AI and with technology and distractibility, uh, and with competition, like the demands are so high on the everyday person that if you don't organize your time, you just drown like you.

Absolutely. I. Just drown in most workplaces. Right. So therefore, time blocking is a necessarily evil in that sense because it's an incredibly valuable tool to become ruthlessly productive mm-hmm. Uh, to achieve specific tasks and to do meaningful work because you're shaping your time. But then can Newport would say, but don't time block your weekends.

Yeah. And don't time block outside of five or six o'clock or whenever you finish work. Mm-hmm. Um, so ruthlessly time block. The productive task oriented parts of your life, which then actually give you, gives you the ability to then decompress and to [00:39:00] have slow productivity and to be spontaneous around the edges.

Uh, I think that's the type of approach that works because I think it's a helpful compromise between maybe what you are feeling and what. I think about the way I work. Um, for me, because of my personality, I've, if I don't not, if I don't structure my non-work times, I'll drift towards work and tasks. 'cause that's my default, you know?

Yeah. If I've got like, give me two hours and yeah. All I wanna do is, I don't know. Write something or be productive or start a new organization. Like this is what I do by default. Mm. So I've had to very clearly guard out from Friday night to Saturday night. I call it my Digital Sabbath. I wrote that about that in my book, Spacemaker.

I book a whole 24 hour period each week where I have no devices, no technology, no email. I don't plan anything else within that. It's a planned unplanned day. Yep. And then I wake up and we can do what we feel like, 'cause it's the day with no [00:40:00] plans. But before I structured the unplanned day. I was always working,

and you're right, like we're such a great contrast.

Like I, to some degree, like in a perfect world you'd be, um, you'd probably be having to time block and you would be time blocking less. Yeah. And I, and I'll be time blocking more. Yeah. I think, I think that's probably

it, but I think somewhere in the mix between being overly structured and overly spontaneous that there's.

Probably the right mix, but I think time blocking is definitely part of the solution for everyone. So if you're gonna forge ahead with action and get unstuck, and if you have intentions of doing something like a habit change, uh, I do. We, we do think that time blocking is absolutely one of the solutions.

Those habits and those intentions need to be represented as regular, recurring time blocks in your calendar. Uh, don't overly time block. Meaning, you know, leave enough margin and enough space where you don't crowd yourself otherwise, you might push against your own time blocks and just ignore them. Yeah.

But at the same time, make sure that if, if Matt or I would look at your [00:41:00] calendar and we, we won't do this. If we were, look, if we were, I don't want it just for the record, I've got no inclination to look at your

calendar,

man. If we were, you would wanna be able to say, Hey, this person values exercise, or This person seems to value time with their friends, or, this person seems to value time writing or creating content because their calendar, their time represented.

Represented. And the point is because your time is your life. Yeah. And you become what you do on a regular basis. So hopefully that's been helpful. There's lots to think about in that space, but let's move on to the next actions.

Yeah. Thanks for that. That that was food for thought for me too.

Here's what we're hoping people would do this week, and obviously it's all about time blocking, really practicing time blocking. But again, really important to remember the big idea or the big goal of time blocking isn't just like calendar management or even just simply time management. We're hoping that to encourage people to take a couple of steps to ensure [00:42:00] that those intentions that they actually wanna see kind of, I guess, like carried out in their lives.

And those intentions are gonna be, again, connected to their values. We wanna make sure that these are connected to how they're actually spending their time. Yeah. I

mean, essentially it's a tool and that's all it is. Yeah. You know, it's not a magical tool, but it's a tool to help manage yourself. Hmm. Yeah.

Who you want to be and what you want to do. And so, yeah. So how do we recommend people start?

Yeah. So we've got, uh, like a. A three step process. So number one, we'd like you to find a place where you won't be disturbed. Maybe it's a cafe, maybe it's just like at home when, when everyone else is out, and spend some time going through your calendar or your diary, like whichever you use as it currently stands.

Yeah, and look at it, examine it through the lens of what. Like, what does my, my current calendar or diary say or reflect about my values? Mm. And about my intentions. Yeah. Yeah. So for example, if someone like didn't know me and they just pick this up, or you know, God forbid if Dan c was looking over my shoulder, looking at my calendar, why would he say is reflected in terms of what's important to me based on this?

[00:43:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's number one. So it's, yeah, like

so, and basically is your, is your time representative of the things you care about. That's it. So it's like an audit. To use another, it's a time, water. Yeah. To use

another great word that people love. And it's a, it's a very,

very exciting word. Yeah. It's an audit, but I don't spend too long on it.

No. Just scan. Scan the last few months. Yeah. And just say honestly, yeah. How much does my calendar represent what I care about?

Yeah. Yeah. So I don't, yeah, but don't dodge anything that comes out of it either. Right. Sure. Because it could be a bit confronting. Okay. So that's number one. And then number two, go back to that again.

One area or domain of life that you're hoping to shift just a little bit. So now we've talked, you know, for a couple of weeks, a couple of, um. Of episodes about behavior actions. So take like that tiny habit that you've hopefully already identified that's, you know, come out of the Pathways exercise before that and schedule it.

Think about how you can schedule that into your calendar.

Yeah. Now the only caveat is, you know, we talked about tiny habits. Mm-hmm. And I wouldn't necessarily schedule tiny habits if there are other triggers. So for example, remember, uh, whenever I have a SH shower, I do my kind of. Letting go activity.

Yeah. I'm not gonna, I'm, [00:44:00] I probably don't even put shower in my calendar because it's so habitual and my calendar doesn't start until, you know, I head to work. So sometimes there's a, a trigger or a habit stack that works. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, but, but the point is the same, you know, what do you wanna change?

Yeah. And then what are the time blocks that need to represent that? Sure.

So like, we're talking about something that's probably like gonna be a bit more kind of new and standalone. Yeah. Well then, so this takes a bit of time then lastly, so three outta three. Actually put it into your calendar. Yeah. Or, or your diary.

Um, again, like we want it to be consistent. We want it to be realistic. Um, as you said right at the very start when you talked about time blocking, you need to give it the actual time, whether it's, you know, five minutes, 15 minutes up. Yeah. So again, like be realistic about how much time it's gonna take.

The magic of it is just make sure that whatever you put in your calendar represents the domain you wanna shift. Mm-hmm. So if you want to shift a relational domain mm-hmm. Or make sure that you've got some type of relational time blocking there. Yeah. Where you're connecting with the people you care about most.

Mm-hmm. Uh, if it's a self-care or a health domain mm-hmm. Well make sure you've got, you know, time to walk or [00:45:00] exercise or do yoga or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. In your calendar. Ideally with other people or maybe with yourself, if it's about money, you know, make sure you have some type of saving goal. You know, make sure I do my, I don't know, my weekly.

Bank kind of tasks on this particular time block, you know, and then you might refer to some other kind of habits related to your finances. Does that make sense? It could be anything. Yeah. Just make sure that the time block will help naturally or logically move you forward in the domain you feel stuck in one domain.

Yeah. One shift.

Mm-hmm.

To transform one area over this podcast. Uh,

bonus question. Hmm. What about if the whole idea of a calendar is just completely up, I can't even spell the word. Like what? Like what? Like where do you start again? If you think, man, you know, I, like, I wake up, I roll outta bed, I go to work.

I, I do the thing like maybe you've got a, like a digital calendar. Our

work maybe, but it's very rarely like, utilized. Yeah. Look, if you don't have a calendar, I mean, you need a calendar. If you're an analog person and you know you'll do paper, but you [00:46:00] won't do digital, well then, you know, go to the news station and buy a paper calendar.

Mm-hmm. And, and start. You gotta start somewhere. Look, if you're an Outlook for work, then use your Outlook calendar if you're on an iPhone or then use an iCloud calendar. Like, don't get, don't get hung up on researching tools. Mm-hmm. A calendar is just a. A diagrammatically representation of your time. The key is that you start thinking about how you use that time and learning to book appointments or calendar appointments with yourself for specific activities.

Uh, start today and then learn more about calendar management over time. Cool. Okay. So Matt, we're nearly at the end of our podcast. Mm. And the last two episodes will be great. We're gonna talk about traveling alongside others next week and the importance of accountability and support in a community. Uh, and then we're gonna do something interesting about the goal of the goal on the last episode to pull it all together, so you won't wanna miss out on that.

But, uh, until next time. Make space everyone. Thanks everyone.

The space [00:47:00] makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

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