[00:00:00] Hey there, space makers. I'm Daniel Sih, joined by my good friend and co-host Matt Bain. This is the third season of The Space Makers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life more than a podcast. This podcast course will help you get unstuck in one area of life. One step at a time by helping you shift the way you live and work.

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The space makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Space Makers Podcast, the end of season three, where we have been talking about how to get unstuck for a surprising second act. And I'm here with my co-host Matt Bain, who has survived nine whole episodes and hopefully 10 of this last [00:01:00] season. Well, the way I count is actually 29.

29,

but I, uh, welcome back. Thank you. Thank you. It's great to be here. Um, yeah. Hard to believe. Yeah. This is it. I know it made another

season. Another season, yeah. Yeah. Another pod course. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's been a good one. It's a bit different, it's been a bit more practical. We've had a bit more focus around the shift framework and hopefully people have learn to, uh, get unstuck in a small area of life.

Well, one step at a time.

Yeah, I think some people really, um, at least some people really like the gear change going from pretty, uh, conceptual last season to something really, really super, uh, super concrete and actionable in the here and there. Yeah.

So look, um, before we move on to the topic, which is we're gonna talk about the goal of the goal and how sometimes what we want isn't what we actually need.

But as we finish this podcast, we would love to ask our listeners for a small favor or favors. Uh, one of the things we'd love to ask.

Yeah, well, like, number one, uh, sincerely, if you found this helpful and useful at all, and you got people in your life you think would also benefit from it, [00:02:00] it'd mean a lot to us.

We'd really, really appreciate it if you wouldn't mind sharing it with those people, if you think it'd really make a difference. Mm-hmm. And it'd be valued. Yeah, regardless of metrics and all that kind of stuff, that would just mean a lot to us. 'cause that's like the primary reason why we do this is to help people.

Yeah. Yeah. Look, it take, I mean, it takes a lot of hopeful, you know, time, effort, love behind this podcast and we actually really wanna help people. Mm. And every time you can let someone else know who needs it and that, that helps. It's great. Yeah. So that's one favor. Cool.

What's the other one? So, uh, if you're not like a natural reviewer, a star, a, uh, what is like a liker, what else is it?

You don't even know how to do it, do you? I don't really, I mean, I've heard about it anyway. Um, if you feel comfortable with all that stuff, please. Like, uh, if you can give us,

like, leave a review Yeah. And, you know, leave a review between. Five and five stars, uh, totally up to you, but seriously, a few comments means the world to us, and it just, it's super helpful to get reviews, just, you know, to let others know about the podcast.

So thanks again in advance, but let's dive [00:03:00] into the topic for today, which is the goal of the goal. Okay? So Matt, if you had a magic wand Yeah, right now, this is a very believable scenario. If you had a magic wand and you could change one thing in your life right now. Uh, and it can't be to get rid of me, but, uh, what would you ship?

No. Um, you know, there are examples, and this is hypothetical for our listeners. Mm. Uh, you know, maybe our listeners would have a magic wand and wanna have less responsibility and a bit more time and space at work. Maybe they'd wanna pay off their mortgage or repair a strain relationship that was causing, you know, heartache.

Maybe they'd wanna get fit enough to run a marathon or, you know, be a famous influencer. As, uh, my kids all wanna be. Yeah. Uh, maybe you'd like to spend more time with your kids so that they don't wanna be influencers. Uh, or maybe, yeah, that's good. You know, you'd want a deep sense of inner peace. Just, just that inner security without worrying so much.

So whatever that magic wand would do, maybe you wanna be the world's greatest movie star, maybe the world's greatest movie star. How did you know that? That's my big ambition in life. Uh, [00:04:00] but if you had a magic wand, what would you like to change? And if you got exactly what you wanted. Would it really make you happy?

And that's what we wanna talk about because actually. In our experience and you know, having read from the lives of lots of people who have actually received what they wanted in life, sometimes what we think we want isn't what we want, and sometimes what we do want in life isn't actually as good for us as we think it would be.

So it's possible to chase outcomes and then reach the goal, or not reach the goal and feel dissatisfied along the way. So what we want to talk about is a great question to ask, which is, what is the goal of the goal? What's the why behind the thing that you're pursuing? If you don't ask that question, well then often you can try to solve issues when you feel stuck and realize that the thing you're trying to get isn't the thing you need at all in the first place.

Yeah, that's great. Like dovetails nicely into this entire framework, is that the reason that, um, there's probably some kind of goal behind why you think you feel stuck and if [00:05:00] you've misdiagnosed that goal or if that goal kind of isn't worthy then either the means that you throw at trying to get unstuck.

Isn't gonna work out. Or you may find yourself kind of getting unstuck in terms of that you've reached that goal, but it doesn't satisfy.

Sometimes the thing you want is actually closer to you, you know, is at your fingertips all along. Uh, if only you were to think about what the goal, the goal is and to let go of that thing you're pursuing in the first place.

Uh, and just a quick reminder to our listeners just before we move forward, is if you haven't downloaded the. Podcast or podcast Season three Guide, which has an infographic about the shift framework. It has the five capitals exercise, our 50 values exercise, and a lot of the exercises from this podcast.

Well, I'd encourage you to do so. It's at spacemaker au slash S3. Yeah, I'd say it's necessary, and of course the link is in the show notes. Alright, so Matt. You mentioned a friend of yours Yeah. Who rides motorbikes. This is a few episodes ago, and really this episode came out of [00:06:00] that conversation. Uh, it was a bit more of a passing comment, but you and I talked about it after that and we actually thought it said something that was broader and deeper, which we should.

Kind of tackle as we finish this unstuck series.

Yeah, that's it. So, uh, a friend probably in the fifties, uh, he was getting up early one morning to go start his shift at work and he figured, you know, I've got this motorbike, I'm gonna jump on the motorbike and ride to work. So he did, and he was booting along a particular highway, dusk.

So not the safest, probably time to be riding. And it was pretty much deserted. And he happened to, like to glance down at his speedo and saw that he was clocking in 150. 160 Ks. Yeah. Okay. And he just startled, like he, as in he, he startled himself. It was really shocked. And he said it was almost as if he had this like lightning bolt or um, I guess to mix metaphors like the light globe came on an epiphany and he kind of hit him that perhaps whilst he liked, he used to like.

Motorcycling. He wanted if there, and then he was liking and in love with the idea of motorcycling. [00:07:00] So like literally slowed down, went to work, rode it home, put it in the garage and put it on Gumtree that day. I. Hasn't ridden motorcycle since. Where's RA

now? I bet.

You know, it's funny. See, he's gonna hate me saying this here if, if he ever listens, but he does.

He really does. You are. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He does. I mean, it's

a simple story and I like the, what's a sad story now that you prank up that way? More like a tragedy. I like, I like the epiphany, but, um, what you're saying is what he thought he wanted. Wasn't actually what he wanted, or, or, or who he wanted to be, wasn't who he actually wanted to be anymore.

I was thinking

more about this as in, you know, at, um, searching for some easy to grab examples and the classic one is like, how many guys, and it's particularly guys as in boys, do you know, probably yourself included, uh, who like in teenage and decided that they were play guitar. Because they, and they thought that they were in love with the idea of actually like playing guitar when it turns out No, no, no.

You're actually in love with the idea of being a rockstar. There are exceptions that just dawn to me. You are one of those exceptions. Because I, when you play for the pure love of the instrument, I know, yeah, yeah. Know why [00:08:00] I played, but um, yeah, but it wasn't ever to be a rock star. Yeah. But for every, like, for every, you, there's, I'd say like, like 10 other guys who dropped it pretty quick.

'cause there wasn't that tried it for a while.

I mean, that, that there's a story that. Mark Manson shares in the subtle art of not giving a hoot, uh, for our listeners Yeah. Who wanna keep this clean. We call it the art of not giving a duck at our place a, but Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. But he gives that exact story.

He says that he always thought he wanted to be a rock star. I mean, he was seriously. Oh really? He was seriously into it, you know, like he, you know, his heroes were rock stars. You know, he read everything and he listened to all the music and he al you know, always envisaged that he would be on the stage as a, you know, I dunno if it was heavy metal or some kind of grunge rock star.

But then he kind of came to the realization one day that he didn't practice enough to be a rock star. I. And he didn't actually like practicing and he wasn't gonna practice. And this is where his kind of profound idea comes from in that book. I really liked it where he says, actually, everyone can imagine a better future.

It's easy to imagine a goal or imagine something that you want to be, but the true test of whether or not you actually want [00:09:00] something is the pain you're willing to sustain on a regular basis. So he came to the conclusion that actually he wasn't willing to sustain the pain required to be a rockstar.

And actually that's a great test of whether you actually want something, you know, you could say something, your is your goal, but unless you actually have the motivation or interest in sustaining pain on a regular basis to achieve it. Then do you really want it? I found that really helpful for me. 'cause I think about business, you know, it's super hard to run a business.

It just is. It's hard to start one, it's hard to sustain one, it's hard to do it in a way that isn't exhausting, that's both profitable, but doesn't kind of take away your life, you know, take up your time. But it is a pain I'm willing to sustain on a regular basis. 'cause I see the value in it, you know? Yeah.

Where there's other things that I aren't. I'm not willing to sustain. I'm not willing to become a marathon runner. Not willing to play guitar. Well, you know, I don't, I find that useful. Maybe that's one of those intrinsic ideas that help you realize how much you actually want something or not.

Yeah. I like that.

It's, uh, suffering and sacrifice. I. As a indicator of degree of love. [00:10:00] Yeah. If you really love something, then you'll sacrifice and suffer for it. Hmm.

Yeah. We weren't gonna go there, but, uh, hey, since we did so, um, but what we wanna do is talk about the idea that, uh, sometimes what we think we want isn't what we want for various reasons.

And so it's really helpful to do what Dan Heath says in his book reset, which is to reflect on what the goal of the goal might be. Why do you want that goal? He talks about New Year's resolutions and how we all want to, you know. Change something at New Year's, but most of us don't. And so there was a bit of a study where researchers interviewed a whole heap of people about what they wanted to change at the beginning of the new year.

And he cites one particular lady, a lady from Australia, actually, Marissa, LS. So she had two kids. And her New Year's resolution was, I'd like to get fit or fitter. To be able to go about my daily activities without being breathless and to lose a bit of weight so I can get into my pre COVID clothes. Uh, now the backstory is that, um, Marissa was super unwell.

She had a whole lot of chronic illnesses. She had young kids. Uh, she was so [00:11:00] unwell that some days, you know, having a shower would completely kind of. You know, UNH her, in terms of breathlessness, she would often have to lie down and have ice packs on 'cause of pain. So, you know, she was really struggling in her life.

So it made total sense that she wanted to get fit. But then the research study asked participants, well what is the goal of the goal? Essentially, why do you want to get fit and healthy? And, you know, she didn't have to think about it. She said, oh, the reason I wanna get healthy is 'cause I wanna be a great mom.

I want to be the best mom I can. My kids are without a doubt, the most important. Thing in my life. Then the researchers said, well, if that's the goal of the goal, what are 10 alternative ways that you could achieve that without getting fit? So take the fitness kind of piece off the table. Are there other avenues through which you could achieve the goal of the goal?

Now you can hear what's happening here on this is way power. I was just

thinking that it's like, it sounds like the science of way power, it

sounds like the science of way power. If you miss that episode, it, it is basically way power where you're starting to shift the spotlight around and, and come up with alternative pathways to solve the same [00:12:00] problem.

And so she came up with a whole lot of different alternatives. She said that things have been pretty serious for the family over the last year and they used to have more fun, so you know, how could they get more fun in their lives? She said that they used to have a bit more music, so what if they brought music back?

They said they used to have better kind of bedtime routines and general routines that have kind of fallen off and, and so how might you get those things back again? So she started to see alternatives and because of that, because she realized actually the goal isn't to get fit, the goal is to be a great mom and hang out with my kids.

Then she actually came up with some really interesting solutions and she put them into practice. So according to Dan Heath, um, Marissa bought a rocking chair so she could sit outside and watch her kids play with the Guinea pigs. And that was a way of kind of, you know, sharing family life. She bought a 6,000 piece Lego set, uh, Harry Potter Lego set must have been enormous.

The family then went along and, you know, opened one bag each week and um, that's cool. And they got to do Lego together. They started playing board games. [00:13:00] There's a great quote. She says, even if I'm vomiting, I'll still be playing the bloody board game. Uh, you know, she might be lying on the couch with an ice pack, but she could still roll the dice or get the kids to roll the dice and then argue whether with whether they got the right dice numbers or not.

But um, the point is she actually got to achieve her goal. She's like, I think it's awesome. Yeah. But she would never have been able to achieve. Her goal, she could only achieve the goal of the goal if she hadn't paused to think about why she wanted what she thought she wanted. She would've just felt disappointed.

She wouldn't have been able to get fit, and she wouldn't have been able to serve her kids better. I. The final quote that she actually said in this kind of case study was, I look back now and go, I would never have actually been able to get fit and I would've felt bad about it, which is

so, oh man. Like that, that really hits me.

'cause it shows, I guess if you get hung up on the wrong goal, it's gonna have a net negative effect. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's likely, maybe

not definitely, but it's likely to have a net negative effect and you can spend so much time chasing that [00:14:00] goal. Mm-hmm. Th and then either reach it or not reach it, you know, but then wonder why you feel dissatisfied in the first place.

Interesting. It's just so easy to chase something because it's exciting and interesting or challenging and hard, and then forget why you're doing it in the first place. So it's easy to forget the goal behind the goal. It's easy to forget the goal behind the goal. And actually, I would say even more than that, sometimes it's hard to work out what the goal behind the goal is because we intuit it.

And we detect it as Viktor Franklin says, we detect our last meaning. We don't necessarily find it.

Mm-hmm.

Sometimes we don't know ourselves enough to know why we want what we want. Mm-hmm. And that just makes it a whole lot more complicated.

Yeah. Yeah. True. And you know what's really, really complicated is when you like, it turns out that there's a goal behind the goal.

Behind the goal.

Now we're going, now we're going into inception land.

So Matt, we've established that, you know, there's a goal behind the goal. It's a good question to [00:15:00] ask. It's a good question to reflect on, but it's hard to answer. Uh, so I mean, what might people do, particularly if they're stuck and they're trying to say, you know, I need, if I had a better relationship, if I had a better job, you know, if I can get outta debt, if I had whatever, then I wouldn't feel stuck.

Okay. I. Well, how might you pause and actually ask the deeper questions about your internal motivations and what will really make you happy?

Sure. Um, simple question. They're, that's it. Going back just a couple of steps, hearing you retell that story of the Australian woman, uh, who was unwell. That just, that just like made me think, it stood out to me that, um, a, she identified the goal behind the goal really quickly and it was pretty simple and obvious, but at the same time it took to some degree her being involved with another group of people, the research group who kind of asked her clearly.

That question before the answer like came to her. [00:16:00] So it was both simple, if you like, but at the same time it had been kind of hidden and she got understand, understandably fixated, at least for a while on this idea of getting fit. That was the goal. It wasn't until someone else came, you know, from outside her immediate experience and said, Hey look, what's the goal behind the goal here?

That it became clear and apparent to her.

So that fits with like our last episode, which is travel alongside others. Yes. Isn't it that often you do need, well, you, you always need a social context. You need others to help you discover who you are. I think

so. Like, um, if my experience mirrors most people, it's just so easy for me to get stuck in almost like siloed dead end.

A dead end ruts in my head. And particularly if I stay solely in my head. Mm-hmm. I go down the same old streets, you know, I, I just do like continual blockies in my mind. Um, and it's just so easy for me at least to try to kind of, again, double down, going back to the, the way power stuff to double down on the, on the same old, same old mm-hmm.

When it comes to solutions. Yeah. And I think it probably, that's also the case when it comes to identifying goals. Yeah. I get hung up [00:17:00] on, I. Goals, and I don't do enough time of getting outta my own head and exposing my thinking and my aspirations and my values to other people who can say, well, actually, is that really the goal, Matt?

Or is there another goal lurking behind that goal?

Yeah, and look, a lot of the time, I, I mean, if I'm honest, I don't really want to share what my deeper goals are, the things that I'm truly chasing. Mm-hmm. Or how much I care about them with others, maybe because I know that. By putting it out there and by saying it out loud, I might realize that there's a bit of a, um, oh, what's that?

What's that story? The, uh, the king with no clothes, you know, that there's, there's nothing behind it. Oh,

the emperor, the emper emperor close. You know, like actually

when you, when you say, Hey, what I really want is to be able to travel, or what I really want is to earn this much income, or when I, you know, as soon as you say it, you realize, well, actually, I know that money doesn't make me happy, and I know that kind of experience isn't what I truly want, you know, by saying it.

You kind of expose my, the lack of the lack of truth behind it. Yeah. Uh, and so there's a risk, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. When you actually put your goals out there and let others speak into it, which is what she allowed the [00:18:00] people to do.

Yes. Yeah. Well, both, that's, yeah. That's really interesting. 'cause I think what, um, what I've heard you pick up on is the fact that if I verbalize it, or if I articulate it.

Then perhaps someone else will gently point out or question whether that will actually give me what I want. So again, is that really your goal, or is that just a kind of like the goal be in front of the real goal? Yeah. And

secondly, and what's the reason you want, and will it really give you that?

But the other risk, like the other attendant risk is that if you go, and this ist new obviously, but if someone, you know, um, shared with other people, look, my goal this year is to make, uh, like a cool meal.

I'm gonna make a cool meal this year. Or my goal is to like, you know, run an like, compete and finish an Iron Man. Immediately, regardless of whether it's actually gonna give you satisfaction or not. The other issue that raises its ugly head is reality may prove, sorry man, you're not capable. All

that is to say it is worth traveling alongside others to share your stories.

I. To share your stuckness Yeah. And to let others speak into your, um, your solutions.

Well, [00:19:00] yeah. Um, although I think what we just said is that it's worth it, but it's still, it could suck. So, no, I could, so, so, because if I let people in, right, they may say, look, I, I hate to break it to you, Matt, but I know you financial acumen and there's no way, like realistically, maybe, you know.

Easy tiger. Drop it down to 500,000. But the point is, that's so much better than being left alone with my delusions. Yeah. And my thinking, well, actually, I, I like, I really am capable, but I'm never gonna take the risk of actually exposing that aspiration or that goal to a wider, more kind of concrete objective reality.

Yeah. Okay. For feedback. Okay. Like, you know what I, so it's better, but it could still suck. Oh.

But it's gonna suck more if you don't. Of course. Yeah. But nothing we talk about in this podcast is easy. You know, if you want a better life, you want to become a better person, you're gonna have to walk through difficulty.

So, so if you are in a position where, okay, you get this, you are curious about whether you, you, the goals that you are setting for yourself, whether they're implicit or explicit, you know, this is what I need to get unstuck. [00:20:00] Uh. Is actually the goal of the goal. I mean, how would you go about it? I imagine the first thing is it, it is worth reflecting yourself, you know, whether that be pulling out a journal or just thinking about the question.

And the question really would be, why do I want this? I, I reckon that's a great idea.

Um, maybe as a slight like, um, adjunct to that, you know, or, uh, or compliment. Um, particularly when it comes to trying to verify the worth of the goal. Then maybe like the other kind of thought exercise you could run is.

What would you, what would you say to a friend who articulated this? Yeah. So someone who you cared about, you know, but it's not you, but it's someone you care about. What would you say if they share that with you? Yeah.

Which is a great question, and one that's often used to objectively step back from yourself and then give yourself better advice.

Uh, and then that would lead to the next step, which is probably just the extension of actually having a conversation with your best friend. Hmm. And saying, well, this is what I'm trying to change. But I'm not quite sure why I wanna change it and allow them to speak into that.

Yeah.

Hopefully you have that type of relationship and hopefully that's [00:21:00] the kind of conversation that you know, would be reasonable to have.

Mm-hmm. And I suppose the point is, once you work out what the actual inner motivation and drive is, I think the question that Marissa Labour was asked is a great question. Imagine that what you are trying to do is taken off the table. You know, in my situation, okay, imagine you can't get a great YouTube channel on a podcast, or imagine you can't, you know, create this type of online community.

Well then. How might you try to tackle the, the why without a business? Uh, how might you try to tackle having being a great mom without. Being healthy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that's, they're good questions. And at the very least, it'll make you think. Yeah. Uh, at the best you might discover that there's new paths and new ways to achieve something and, and new ways to achieve things that are just way faster and simpler than you thought.

You know, I love the story of the, um, I think it's from 4,000 weeks, the, the Mexican fisherman, he's there with his friends drinking wine, playing music, playing guitar in the hot [00:22:00] sun. Uh, and this kind of, I don't know, American business traveler comes through and sees this guy and end up chatting and, uh, and he loves the guy's life, but he's like, what you doing?

And he's like, I'm a fisherman. You know, I've got a boat. And I fish like, I don't know, two hours a day. And he's like, what? Well, what if you could like, not just fish two hours a day? What if you were to fish eight hours a day and with the surplus money that you get, you could buy other boats and you could employ other fishermen, and then you could create this amazing kind of, I don't know, Mexican fishing empire and, and like sort yourself out.

And, and then the, the Mexican fishermen said, oh. It sounds fantastic. And then what would I do with myself? And, and the business, the businessman from America goes, oh, well then, then you could hang out in the hot sun with your friends, play guitar and drink wine whenever you wanted to. Mm-hmm. You know, and I love the irony of that, but I think sometimes the thing we really want is already available to us.

You know, like again, in this example, like Marissa had to buy a rocking chair and she had [00:23:00] to roll dice. To play board games with the kids

dude, like, do you know how much you forecast for a 6,000 piece Lego set these

days? Yeah, I'm, I'm, I miss a Lego set. Yeah, yeah. But does that make sense? Like it was already available.

Yeah. And I think sometimes the things that we really want are actually already available to us, but we're trying to chase things that stop us getting there. I think businesses a classic, you know, I want a business so I can have space and time to do the things I want with my kids and have security.

Actually, I'd probably have a lot of that accessible to me now. I could probably travel now, I just wouldn't have to go as far. Do you know what I mean? Like yeah, the things are accessible, right? Now's if I knew what the goal was. But we have to admit to ourselves what we're actually trying to chase in the first place.

The only other question that I throw into the mix is going back to my mate's motorbike story and, and, and the Mark Manson is how much are you really willing to suffer and sacrifice for this goal? Like, are you willing to pay the price? So for my mate who was running the motorbike, I think of, or was either best case scenario, a bunch of speeding fines.

Worst case scenario is getting like scraped up from

the highway. Yeah, so that's a great question. Maybe that's the final question to ask. Once [00:24:00] you've identified the goal, the goal, you've talked about it with another person, the realism test might be, well, what, what type of habits and what type of sacrifice and what type of time and emotional and relational cost will this take to achieve?

And are you willing to sustain that pain on a regular basis? And that's the real question of whether it's truly your goal or whether it's an aspiration. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, if you're stuck, there's no way to get unstuck without some type of pain, loss, suffering, sacrifice. Um, that's just the reality of life, right?

Um, but everything in life that's worthwhile will cost you something That's right. Pick your poison. You've just gotta work out what your poison is and whether or not you want enough to actually get that. But at least the beginning point is working out. Are you chasing the right goal? Yeah. 'cause the last thing you wanna do is to take the poison to sacrifice and to work hard to achieve what you want or not achieve it, and then suddenly realize it's not what you wanted in the first place.

What you wanted actually was available all [00:25:00] along. And maybe you stuffed it up because you were chasing something you didn't want in the first place. I gotta be philosophical on the end, on our final episode. Yeah, it was always gonna go that way. So maybe we'll pause for a moment. Have 30 seconds before we dive into this kind of last section of the pod, but for listeners who might be thinking about being stuck and thinking about what they want in life, what they're truly chasing, and how much pain they wanna sustain, and what's the goal of the goal?

Is there someone you could talk with about this and, and who would that be? You know, when might you have a conversation with them? And I suppose just to reflect on. What is something that's already at your fingertips that you could take up and do right now to nudge you one step closer to being unstuck, to achieve the thing you really want in life?[00:26:00] 

So hopefully it's been useful to think about the goal of the goal and to reflect a bit on what your why is. But, um, look, we're gonna wrap up with a discussion about the shift framework, which we, we've been working through a shift, being an acrostic that summarizes how to get unstuck. They're principle based, you know, so we, we weren't wanting to give you a dummies guide to being unstuck.

We just wanted to help you have some research based principles that have [00:27:00] helped us, and we thought we'd finish by sharing how you and I have. Gain some benefit ourselves. I, I think about Richard Bark's quote, I teach best what I most need to learn. And you know, part of the reason you and I do the podcast is we want to improve our own lives.

We'll hopefully see our lives improve and this stuff works. And if it doesn't, well, you know, sorry you've listened to nine episodes, but, um, podcast is still free, right? Our podcast is still free. Yeah. You get your money back. Yeah. So lemme go through the shift framework briefly, and then I thought we'd finish with, you know, you sharing what you've learned.

I'll share what I've learned and then we'll intro season four. Sounds good. So, S stands for selected domain. So to pick a domain of your life or an area which you wanna shift something in, uh, H is harness your strengths. We talked a lot about a strength based focus, looking at what works and looking for the bright spots to move forward.

Uh, I as imagine multiple paths. This is the way power stuff to think differently about how you might approach and tackle your goals. Uh, f is for forge ahead with action. We talked about the importance of tiny habits and the [00:28:00] importance of pre-commitments. Which we also called time blocking. So making sure your calendar represents what you wanna change, uh, knowing that you have to act your way to new forms of thinking sometimes even if you don't feel or think the way you want to.

Uh, and the final one is to travel alongside others, which we talked about last week, about the importance of sharing life in community and how much being unstuck is actually not about you, but about who you travel with. But with that framework in mind, why don't we just share a few thoughts about how we have hopefully.

Been a bit less stuck in our particular domain. So first thing to say is that

this is obviously like a work in progress, and I think we said we, we kind of named this up at the, as part of the very first episode when we talked about this idea that this isn't a, uh, this, as you just mentioned, isn't self kind of like self shifting for dummies.

Uh, don't wanna kind of downplay the complexity of people's. Situations and the degree that they really are stuck. And that includes us, right?

That includes us. They don't, we wanna pick real examples for us. Yeah, we didn't wanna just do kind of pat examples where we'd already solved it. Yeah. You [00:29:00] know, 90%.

That's

right. And we didn't wanna kind of give the impression this is gonna be a quick fix either. So, but having said all that. I think that, um, I've certainly made, it feels like I made a lot of progress in my particular area of being stuck. So o over committed in terms of time, uh, to both people and really good causes.

So they're all almost all good things, but I've said yes to so much 'cause I'm a bit of a people pleaser and 'cause I'm like naturally curious. And so what happens as a result is I can't meet all those commitments actually give. Each of them what I think they deserve. So as a result, I feel, 'cause it's true, like I've let people down, I've let causes down, or, or I'm just giving them my absolute minimum.

And that's frustrating for them and for me. So, um, I, um, as we talked about in earlier episodes, in terms of like, I guess on the runway, ground level, concrete changes, I've made at least two big ones, I think, which are, and again, I guess you could call these like, uh, heuristics. The first one is that for any, uh, any big invitation or commitment that I say yes to, that's ongoing.

I'm now building in the [00:30:00] qualification that it'll, it'll extend as far as. At the end of the calendar year or 12 months. And then I just wanna, I need to be able to reassess it, clear boundary about how long are you gonna commit to something, and then the ability to reassess. That's it. So that's, so that's the first one.

Uh, the second one is, uh, as I shared a couple of episodes ago, if it's a, if someone is kind enough to offer me like a pretty, like a, a substantial opportunity that involves a fair bit of commitment, I, I just need to nicely give myself and convey to them that I just like, I need a 24 hour period to kind of consider it.

Try to discern whether it's something that I should do for, you know, for, for everyone's sake, who, who's involved. Yeah. So I'm not just impulsively reacting to great opportunities or like really, you know, people who I wanna spend more time with, like, so to speak. You know, and again, like for me, part of the issue is just being able to deploy both those strategies without.

Coming across like a pompous ass. 'cause I know that's a risk If all it's true. I think

that's a big risk.

It's a risk. It's still a risk. It's like how self, how bloated with self-importance can this person be? They gotta [00:31:00] build a 24 hour cool off period. But anyway, so they're like two kind of like two little moves.

But I think like, they'll, they'll, they'll, so there's some strategies that have come out of this. Yeah. I guess you, yeah. So I guess maybe like, they're, they're tactics, right? Yeah, yeah. They're on the ground. Um, actionable tactics. Yeah. But the, the larger thing is, and we, we kind of flagged this. In episode one, we use the analogy of, um, um, a map and maybe feeling stuck involves not just finding your way back, um, and getting back on track as per the original map, but perhaps getting stuck will lead to a whole new map.

Mm. Like going back to the element of surprise that you didn't see coming and that's where this led. 'cause I thought that perhaps, you know, like the. The goal of the goal was just to kind of lessen my, um, my commitments to some degree and get better at saying thanks. But no for now, you know, to different opportunities and causes.

But after giving it some reflection, again, particularly having this question thrust right in my, my windshield about what's the goal behind the goal. [00:32:00] Um, I think, I think that the goal has been, I. For me, the goal behind the goal has been wanting to have both the like, um, enough financial freedom and enough, um, I suppose enough, um, projects going that I've always felt that I've had all these options open to me.

Mm-hmm. And I've probably felt that I needed to have all those options open for me. 'cause I felt some kind of vague sense of discontent with my, you know, with my kind of like overall situation, you know. So is

it almost like, if I'm paraphrasing that you. Keep your options open and say yes to probably too much because you're trying to chase that.

Well reduce that discontent that you have. Yeah. Yeah. You wanna find the exciting thing, the new thing, the the thing that might actually make you feel Yes. A bit happier.

Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Okay. That's a good insight because what it's costing me in terms of that sacrifice is time. Mm-hmm. And that's time with the people that I've already got in my life, the people who I do love, the causes that I'm already involved in, I'm not giving them enough.

And so [00:33:00] that's where I feel a lot of the tension, like you said before, and dissatisfaction.

Hmm. That's great insight. I mean, um, in terms of getting stuck, you started by realizing that we, you started by thinking that what you needed to do is fix your calendar and actually be less committed. Hmm. And you still need to put in those practices 'cause your calendar has to actually be less committed.

But it sounds like you've done a bit of a deeper journey to think about, you know, why do you keep saying yes. To new things and how can you be more aware of what you do have so that it's enough? Yeah. And that's a great insight. Yeah. Do you feel a bit less stuck? Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, it's still, it's still early days, but, but that was, that was the closest thing that I've had to an epiphany for a while.

Right. So that was, I think that's a big, it feels like it's, uh, um, a lot of clarity is kicked in.

I love that, um, you've both got those deeper insights, which is what I would hope our lessons would have for themselves. You know, the motivations, the drives, the aha moments or kairos moments as I [00:34:00] like to say, uh, that help you understand why you do what you do and how you got where you got to.

And then obviously practical, actionable strategies to make progress forward. Yeah, cool. And how's about you? My area of stuckness that I've been talking about. Which, which has been hard 'cause I wasn't sure, we weren't sure if it was a good idea to talk about, uh, 'cause it is about faith and the inner life, you know, which can be very personal.

But it's, it's been about my journey with having worked as a pastor, worked in a church context. Where faith and religion has really been the center of my work and my life. And then being in this new context over the last few years and trying to work out how to do my faith in a fresh way, realizing that I feel a bit stuck, uh, not so much in what I believe, but in how to express what I believe in a really personal

way.

So just like, just to summarize, this is helpful. You went from, uh, working. In a professional religious context to not [00:35:00] working in a professional religious context.

Yeah, yeah. And look, probably had some disappointments and hurts and challenges like anything, you know, along the way. So trying to process that and also work at how do I express my faith now that I'm in this, in this new world?

And so. It was an interesting one using this framework. I wasn't sure if it would help me 'cause it's about the inner life, but I've actually found it super helpful. Uh, and you know, listeners have heard that I've done a number of things. You know, I've found a coach, which has been useful. I've read a number of books, I've caught up with people and, uh, maybe been able to focus on what does work, realizing that there's a lot that's working in my life around my inner life and faith.

So that's been really helpful. Uh, but look, one of the books that. I started reading because of the way power stuff, you know, I ended up talking with someone who led me to a book, uh, is a book called The Dark Night of the Soul, which I'd kind of heard about. And you know, I thought the Dark Night of the Soul was this experience where people went through great pain and suffering and therefore they had a, a renewal experience in their faith.

But one that came through [00:36:00] feeling kind of lost and confused. Um, but actually I've read a bit more about it and I've realized how much it does relate to my situation, and I've found that really helpful. So the, the term comes from I think St. John of the cross that, uh, it was a monk in the 16th century. I think it was also a contemporary of, um, Theresa v Villa, another kind of Catholic nun who's a saint.

But, um, essentially the term Dark Knight in Spanish is the word Akira. And Akira is like where we get the root for. Obscurity. Uh, and so essentially to go through a dark night of the soul or a dark spiritual experience is not so much that it's bad or hard or dark, like, you know, the dark night or the dark force or something like that.

It's, it's more that you just obscure, like you can't see the way forward. You feel confused. And just like we talked about in episode one, the way forward is [00:37:00] unknown. I. And you don't want to go back. You're at that X in the chiasm, but it doesn't have to relate to suffering and pain in any kind of real tangible sense.

And so in that sense, I think I'm fully been experienced at Darton Night of the Soul, and I feel a lot better knowing, knowing that, uh, 'cause there's a reason, there's a purpose that usually helps you grow in your faith, grows, grow in your love for God, growing your maturity. Um, there's usually a purpose in that obscurity and that unknown and.

I think what I've come to the conclusion of is that there's a beauty in that and I'm, I feel really energized actually that, and there's been a lot of moments where I've, I don't know, just had this deep, deep sense of thankfulness and gratitude for my faith and for my beliefs and for my community. So yeah, the conclusion for me is I didn't need to get unstuck.

I just needed to be accepting of my stuckness. And that's kind of what I needed to move [00:38:00] forward. Yeah, I haven't solved all the questions I had. I actually don't have many of the answers that I would've asked questions to at the beginning, but I actually realize now that I don't need those answers because faith is actually trusting God without the answers I.

And not being in control and not having it all sorted. And that's exactly where I'm meant to be right now. Mm-hmm. And so I'm okay with that. Yeah.

Right, right. So maybe the goal or even the goal behind the goal has changed. Hmm.

Yeah. Maybe the goal that I thought I was chasing was control and identity and.

A pathway. A pathway. And actually the goal of the goal has always been the same, which is, you know, again, I'm speaking to non-religious people here, but for me it's still love God and love others and to be known. And that hasn't changed, and that can be done even if I don't have a path forward. So yeah, that's a positive thing.

Yeah.[00:39:00] 

So Matt, that got very serious very quickly, but we want to finish by unveiling what comes next. We truly hope that people have been able to identify an area of their life where they felt stuck. Yeah. Whether it is, you know, as different as yours, and mine is, yeah, everyone's is very unique. But wouldn't it be cool if everyone could have some type of aha moment or an epiphany through this podcast and actually have some practical steps to move forward?

Yeah. Uh, that's been our hope. So hopefully it that's where you've ended up. And look, Matt, and I would love to hear from you. 'cause the thing about being in a podcast is that we sit here and we share our ideas. We don't know whether it's resonating necessarily. Um, this is actually, I

think, I think people are listening.

I know, I think,

I'm sure Mom, listen once. But, uh, if, if this resonates with you, I mean, if, if this podcast has actually helped you get unstuck, we would love to hear from you, right? So please email us at podcast at Space Makers au. Uh, Matt and I read each of these emails. If you have questions, if there's things you've liked, then let us know, but we particularly would love to hear your [00:40:00] stories and hear how you've gained something from this season three podcast.

But let's unveil season four. And it actually came out of a conversation I had with a client. So I was presenting about digital wellbeing and unplugging and some of the stuff I talk about with my bookmaking space. And I just had a conversation with a few people afterwards. And then there's this one guy, and he said this, this fantastic statement.

He said, oh look. He said, I, he loves what I'd been sharing, which was essentially a wellbeing message. Okay, these are the things you can do to unplug and, and be healthier. He says, look, here's the question I have. He says, my workplace now is getting us to do breathing exercises and getting us to kind of care for ourself and eat well, and, and doing all this stuff.

And he said in the past, all I had to do was, I don't know, be an okay dad. Earn the money and you know, maybe do some basic stuff to look after myself. But now, like there's all this stuff that I'm expected to do. I'm expected to eat cheer seeds and go bush walking. And I'm [00:41:00] expected to have cold showers.

I'm expected to be a great dad and sensitive and emotional and. And to do my breathing and to earn money and, uh, to travel overseas and to have a great body. Does that make sense? Like, have a great Instagram account. And he said, all this wellbeing is killing me. And I just, I just love that comment. Yeah. I was like, all this wellbeing is killing me.

We might like to say, all this self-help is killing me. Mm. And I think there's something in there. We think there's something in there, right?

You feel it. I feel it. I reckon a lot of people out there feel it. If there's 101 ways that you can self optimize mm-hmm. That just means there's 101 ways that you can fail.

Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I think what you and I are seeing and hearing is a bit of a pushback against productivity and self help. Uh, just like. We have because there's so much out there, so many expectations. You know, if you just try to do everything Huberman says, like, or everything the space makers say, you'll be exhausted.

And that's actually never been our intention. I suppose if we've done a productivity podcast and a self help [00:42:00] podcast over the last few seasons, we want to have season four being dedicated to anti productivity and anti self-help. Uh, we want to talk about why the self-help story is broken. And we wanna talk about alternative ways in which you might hopefully move forward without trying to

move forward.

Yeah, that's right. So just to be clear, uh, Andy, self-help doesn't mean, um, pro self-destruction. No, that's true. Or self degradation or anything like that. Yeah. But it's more about finding a, I guess, I guess trying to cut through a path that's a bit more life affirming, that's a bit more in accord with how we are made as humans as well.

And that's sustainable and life giving. Mm-hmm. Not crushing.

That's right. So if this, if this last pod course season has been a bit more practical and specific, we suspect that this next one will, will still be practical and specific, but it'll also be a bit more broad and wide to help you think deeply about the culture you're in.

Mm-hmm. Uh, why. Our culture is pushing us to be better and to be more successful, and to do more, and to [00:43:00] be more and, and how exhausting it is, uh, to should and ought to everything. Uh, and to give you some hopefully life-giving practical solutions to make space so that self-care won't kill you. So email us at podcast at spacemaker au.

Let us know, does this idea resonate with you? Will you be excited about hearing about all this self? Care is killing me. Uh, but we are quite excited about this topic. Yeah. And we are looking forward to working on it over the next few months until we release it, hopefully later this year.

Yeah, right.

Have, until then, thanks for journeying with us for season three of the Space Makers.

Hopefully you feel a little bit less stuck in an area of life. But until next time, make space. Thanks everyone.

The space makers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.

A warm thanks to our sponsor, banjos Bakery Cafes who are expanding across Australia and looking for new franchisees. If you're hardworking and business savvy, visit franchise.banjos.com au and save 10% on franchise fees [00:44:00] by mentioning.

Space makers,

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Join Live Zoom training sessions and share your learning with others. Dive into the Dojo to regain control of your time and make space in a supportive accountable community. Visit space makers au slash dojo to find out more. Until next time, make space.