Daniel Sih: [00:00] Hey there, Spacemakers. I'm Daniel Sih here with my good friend and co-host, Matt Bain. Welcome to season five of the Spacemakers, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life.

This season, we're exploring an idea that could change the way you see almost everything. How to hold two seemingly opposite truths intention at the same time. Moving from either or to both and thinking, work and life. Artificial and human intelligence. Pace and space. It's a pod course to help you navigate complexity, think deeply, and embrace the power of both and. Thanks to our generous long-term sponsor, Bulk Nutrients.

Narrator: This is the Spacemakers.

Daniel Sih: [00:27] Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Spacemakers podcast, a podcast to help you live an intentional, meaningful life. We are exploring a big idea in season five, which is how to navigate the complexities of work and life [00:57] using both and thinking.

We're exploring paradox, the productivity paradox, and the power of thinking both and rather than either or to live well to understand the world as it is and to thrive in this frantic volatile world we live in. And I want to start with a story or at least an experience of mine. So I was renovating my house a number of years ago, [01:21] and I was struggling to drill through some steel as part of my renovations. And look, I had a cheap battery powered drill, and I knew I needed more grunt. So I went and spoke to my mate Ken, who has a lot of tools, and he was kind enough to land me an electric tool in his shed. Now, the interesting thing about his electric drill is he gave it to me. He said, uh, just a warning, it's pretty fast.

Well, I think that was an understatement. The problem isn't that [01:50] the drill was fast. Uh, the problem is that the drill had only one speed. I would basically touch on the uh press the button and it would go from zero to this and it went ridiculously fast, and there was nothing in between. There was it was like zero to 150%, uh, which did not help me um drill through the steel that I needed. It kind of went everywhere and I had to brace my hand. [02:16] So I wrote about this story in my first book, Space Maker.

I've actually called the drill the Ken based on uh my good friend Ken who lent it to me. But um, it it's an analogy for me about the way life works or doesn't work. We need speed in our life, but speed without slow doesn't seem to work. Going fast without any rhythm is a recipe for disaster. We need speed and slow. [02:43] We need pace and space.

And that's what we're gonna talk about in this episode. The power of keeping pace and making space, the paradox of working fast and slow, and how to navigate the complexities of work and life in this busy age. So if you're someone who is rushing from meeting to meeting, feeling overwhelmed by tasks and emails, uh finding that work constantly feels fast and overloaded, a bit like the Ken, [03:10] and you don't have enough space or slow or pause or margin in your life.

Uh well, then we're going to talk about how do you navigate the work-life balance, how do you navigate the blend of work and life and the paradox of trying to move fast and move slow at the same time. All right, before I dive in, uh welcome Matt. Matt is our co-host of the Spacemakers, the one and only. Uh, we're both friends with Ken, aren't we?

Matt Bain: We are, we are. You know, I was thinking about that story though, and from memory. Um, so it started off as a land. [03:40] It did start. But I'm pretty sure it became like uh your place became its permanent home. That's true. And I think that was always by intention on Ken's part as well.

Daniel Sih: I think it was.

Matt Bain: It's funny now looking back to it, but he actually made space. You know what I mean?

Daniel Sih: He made space to share. Exactly. And I have no space. Uh so look, Ken, I know you do listen to the Spacemakers from time to time. Thank you. And if uh you ever want the Ken back, uh, you're very welcome to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, look, do you want to give our listeners a quick summary just in case they've missed the first two episodes of season five?

Matt Bain: [04:08] Uh we made a case that the world has gotten increasingly complex. I mean, every generation says that, but we made, I think, made a pretty thorough case that in our context, it is particularly complex.

Yep. Um, and so in the face of complexity, it's easy to resort to what is simplistic, you know, because simple is kind of easy. And so the risk for us is that in different, pretty much all domains of life, it's easy to kind of resort to um either or thinking. So black or white, right or wrong, [04:35] good or evil in the face of this complexity.

Because you just want to be able to like land with something quickly. We said that again, because of the increasing complexity, although it's easy to go with either or thinking, it actually's a more sophisticated, um, it's a more intelligent, mature response to go with both and thinking. And both and thinking is just our kind of simple way of saying paradox. So instead of resorting to either black or white, you say, chances are, let me think about this.

And there's probably two [05:03] options, at least two options that on the surface seem to contradict each other. But with careful attention and discernment, it turns out they're actually interdependent. And that interdependent causes some tension and that tension is uncomfortable.

But if I can navigate that tension, the result of that both and will be at least a third and better way, as opposed to landing on black or white. So it's not a concession. It's not a compromise. Maintaining that tension, going with the both and the paradox is a better way to live. [05:33] That well, that was our argument, right?

Daniel Sih: Yeah, I agree entirely. That's a great description of paradox. And we're particularly talking about or focusing on the paradox of work and life, the tension and the interdependence of work and life in this episode, or what we might call keeping pace and making space.

Matt Bain: And like we said last episode, we go multiple examples across different domains of life, but we really want to start honing in now more about personal life and I guess productivity.

Daniel Sih: So that's where you live. I work with a lot of leaders who are busy and frantic. I mean, they're the [06:01] they're my people. Uh, I think I connect with them because that's the way I live as well. Um, this desire to actually have a career, make an impact in the world, uh, do something that matters in your work life and have a certain sense of, I don't know, legacy or significance, but at the same time, you know, the impact of that can be pretty intense if you live in a world which looks like the Ken where you're just going faster and faster. [06:25] So look, I I run a program called Productivity Masterclass, which I really love. That's it's actually the one I love the most because I get to work with groups of six people really intensely for like nine months. So there's individual coaching, there's group coaching. Um, and by the end of it, I know people really well and they know me really well, which is great. And so it's kind of you get into each other's lives and you kind of get to discover where people are winning, but where they're also struggling to make space.

Um, what's the cost of pace [06:53] and what are the particular tension points? Does that make sense? Yeah. So I remember um a particular conversation I had with, we'll call her Tanya just for confidentiality, but um, Tanya from last year, one of the people in my cohort. So she's a manager in a big organization. Uh, she had staff to manage, she had lots of projects, lots of responsibilities. Uh, and the pace had been ramping up for the last few years, and she felt increasingly overwhelmed. Um, so she came to me because she wanted to get her inbox under control, she wanted to have more time back, she [07:23] wanted to improve her focus and not be so scattered and distracted, and just to build strategies in our life to get organized and not feel so frantic all the time. I said to Tanya, like I often do when people come to me, you know, okay, I want to get organized and I want to build habits. Okay. So I said, okay, look, let's imagine that happens. Let's imagine that in the next nine months or 12 months, you rebuild your systems, you practice new habits, you set better boundaries, uh, you build new tech skills, and you have more space in your life.

[07:52] What would use that space for? And uh Tanya looked at me and like she didn't blink. She immediately just said, Oh, I'd want to be a better mum. And then she went on, she said, Oh, look, like I've got a teenage daughter. She said to me, Oh, Mom, you are always grumpy. Like, why do you have to be so grumpy all the time?

And Tanya looked at me and she said, Oh, I actually had no response because actually my daughter was right. I'm [08:17] grumpy all the time at home. You know, I give the best of my energy and my mind and my thinking to my job and my team and the pressures and the work.

So, you know, I'm I'm living in an environment like the Ken. I come home and there's not much left. And I hate that, you know, and I want to be present for my daughter. She needs me more than ever. I mean, I didn't realize that when you know kids hit teens, they actually need more energy in a different way and more time.

It's kind of weird than when they're little. Uh, you and I would get that. Um, and [08:47] and that's what she wanted.

Okay. So that's the tension I hear, the paradox. On the one hand, she wanted to impact the world through her work.

On the other hand, she wanted to be a great mum. And yet, how do you navigate the tension of that paradox? I think that's kind of what we're talking about. So after that, I said to her, okay, well, let's imagine this, okay?

Let's imagine, Tanya, that in the next year, yes, you build strategies and yes, you build habits, but your work is actually not going to slow down. Because that's the world we're living in, right? It's complex, it's BANI, as we talked about in episode one. [09:15] Feels to me and the people I work with that life is getting faster, that technology is increasing the speed and the rate of change, that there's more financial pressures and there's more competition.

So let's assume that actually rather than more space, you actually have less space and your work remains frantic like the can. How can you be a better mum today? Because you can't wait, right?

You can't wait for this time. I often hear when then thinking. When life slows down, then I'll invest in myself. Uh, when I get my inbox to zero, well, then I'll start [09:43] being a better dad. Just around this next corner. Just around the next corner.

Yeah. When or you know, when that person steps up and volunteers, well, then I'll step off that board I've been avoiding for so long. You know, when I finally get those resources that I want, well, then I'll do that thing I've been avoiding. So we get caught in when then thinking, and I think the same is true with pace and space, or with saying, you know, when [10:05] I can get organized, even in a group that I'm signing up to, well, then I'll do the thing I want. So I I said to Tanya, okay, well, let's let's not get caught in when then thinking.

What is one tiny thing you can do today, even with the whirlwind of life as it is, to be a better mum? Because that's clearly what you want. I mean, why wait until this happens in order to actually do the thing you want to focus on?

Now, clearly, she doesn't have any time and she doesn't have any energy. So it has to be small, it has to be practical [10:31] and it has to be realistic, like a micro adjustment. Like we talked about last episode with the tightrope walker, where you're actually not static, but you're constantly adjusting between two polarities. Yes. Um, so I said to Tanya, okay, well, what is one tiny thing you could do today, next week, etc., to help you be a better mum. And she thought about it and she said, Well, I've actually been walking with my daughter a few times. Well, I've gone I've I've taken the dog for a walk after work, and she's come a few times and we've actually enjoyed the walk.

It's like a 10-15 minute walk. [11:01] And that would be really great to do more regularly. And I said, Well, could you do that? Like, how realistic is it to do that every night after work? And she said, actually, I think that would be really, really valuable.

And I could invite my daughter, at least I get to go with my dog, and she can come sometimes or whenever she wants. But remember, you can't just keep adding because in a world that is already overloaded, you can't just keep adding new things. Uh the Spacemaker's law, which we've talked about in a past episode, or you know, I ripped it off from Newton. [11:29] For every new action, you need an equal and opposite subtraction. So if you're gonna add 15 minutes in your life to walk the dog and be with your daughter, you have to take it away from somewhere because you're already overloaded, otherwise it doesn't work. So I then said to um Tanya, okay, well, what's a 20-minute activity you do daily that has lower value that you could remove from your life to make a bit more space right now for that high value relationship activity, which is also good for her health. And that was something she was struggling with. [11:57] She looked at me sheepishly and she immediately knew she said, Oh, I've been avoiding this for ages.

I should probably delete Facebook from my phone. So I'm like, Well, will that give you 20 minutes back a day? She said, Yeah, in reality, it probably will. Yeah, right. So that's what she did. She deleted, she didn't delete the account altogether, but she deleted Facebook from her phone.

On a phone, yeah. Um, and so we did a trade-off, and then I came back and had a chat with her two weeks later, and she said, Wow, it's going really well. Like I haven't done it every day. Some days just haven't worked, [12:27] but I've walked way more than I would have.

And I've had some really nice conversations with my daughter just in the ad hoc kind of moments, or at least we've just been together and spent time with the dog. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And um, and she actually had a bit of a twinkle in her eye because she felt like she had made a proactive decision to take ownership of what she could right now. What's interesting is I said, What do you need to work on next? And she said, Well, I she really do need my inbox under control. So we talked about okay, how do you use AI to search and get rid of your folders? Uh, how do you set up an action reading waiting folder? How do you do, you know, [12:57] email ninja stuff?

So, how do you get your inbox to zero and spend less time on email? So we've that's stuff I teach her in masterclass. That then led to more space, right? Yeah. Uh, and then from there, it was like, what do you do next? And she said, Well, I actually need to care for myself, and I've been getting headaches. So we talked about what if you were to get a massage every six weeks.

Again, it's adding and subtracting at the same time. Um, on the one hand, she needed to work on her life rhythms, which is how to make space through walking with her dog and having a massage. [13:26] But at the same time, it's all interconnected because unless she got an inbox to zero and actually found a way of managing the cognitive load and the speed and volume of email, so the keeping pace part, well, then she wouldn't have any ability to do work well, which she needs to do to switch off to be at home. They're all interconnected.

Matt Bain: The pace actually added more space.

Daniel Sih: The pace added space and the and the space gave her the ability to say, I'm gonna finally change my work habits. It it helped her add pace, right? So this is the [13:53] paradox or the yin and yang of productivity. We need to be investing in microhabits to make space and microhabits to keep pace, not just to keep adding, but to add and subtract, but again, to constantly navigate the tension of two polarities that seem contradictory, but actually complement each other as well. And that's [14:16] the magic, I think, of what it looks like to try to navigate this complex, busy work-life world.

Matt Bain: Yeah, yeah, there's a bit there.

Daniel Sih: There's a lot there. And it's just obviously one story of many.

Matt Bain: Yeah, but it was good, yeah. Yeah, but it was good. And um, like particularly the points about uh subtracting as well as adding. [14:31] And I also detected, I picked up there was at least uh there was at least uh a one shot of bundling chase over.

Daniel Sih: There was a bundling, I know. And I didn't mention bundling, but for those who have missed our previous episodes, was it season three? We talked a lot about bundling.

Matt Bain: So if you have a battle a lot and season two as well.

Daniel Sih: And if you have two areas or domains of life, yeah, and you're struggling to invest time. So in this case, yes, you heard that Tanya wanted to get exercise and invest in self and she wanted to spend time with her daughter. So she bundled both. [15:00] Yeah.

Matt Bain: Yeah. I'm not sure if the daughter got bundled or the dog got bundled, But someone got bundled there. But it's often better if you don't know about it. You know what I mean? No, definitely. Stealth bundle.

Daniel Sih: Yeah, although dogs don't tend to get upset. They just want to walk.

Matt Bain: But seriously, like one thing on that I think is also worth uh just pointing out briefly. It's easy, particularly when you're talking about polarities. And when and when you're also talking about avoiding, as we talked about last time, the messy or the mundane middle.

It's easy to kind of hear that story. And when she first came to you, and this is the crucial distinction. [15:29] She didn't say, I want to be like the best worker and the best mum. She said, I want to be a better worker and a better mum.

And I think that's so important, right? Because the first one, the first option, I want to be the best here and there. I think that risks falling into the trap of the the delusion that we talked about before being to have it all.

Okay, Dan, here's my problem. I want to be the best at everything. Everyone tells me that I can have it all.

Teach me how to have it all. When she was like talking about again, just being better, [15:58] which lends itself to more incremental, like you said, like slight micro adjustments and improvements as opposed to getting like just beating your head against the thick wall of reality. I just want to be the best, I just want to be the best. No, no, you can't be the best.

Daniel Sih: Yeah, I want to be organised, I want to be efficient, I'll be a great mum and I have an Instagram body, all that kind of stuff.

Matt Bain: Yeah, all that kind of stuff.

Daniel Sih: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Um, so look, uh, for my TED talk, you've you know a lot of people have seen that. I um I started the TED talk by getting a glass of water and pouring [16:25] water into it with a jug. Okay.

And I poured and I poured and I poured until the glass overflowed, and then I just kept pouring, which was fun on a TEDx stage. Yeah. Um, and my analogy is that the glass represents our finite time, our finite capacity and our finite energy. So the reality of, you know, the finitude, which we talked a lot about last season. And if that's the case, the glass that is overflowing, this constant gush of more, uh, more work, more emails, more tasks, um, more responsibilities, more meetings.

Um, [16:54] but that's just in your work life, let alone the school drop-offs, pickups, dance, rehearsals, renovations, food, exercise, podcasts, YouTube. Does that make sense? Like there is just more, right? We talked about that a lot last season. Yeah. But um, but what I like to describe to people in masterclass and and people I coach is like that is our context. Okay, we are living in an overflowing glass world where there is more to do than we can handle. And no matter how organized and how efficient you become, no matter if you become like a black belt [17:23] ninja organizing person, right? And you're absolutely efficient at everything, you still won't be able to keep up because people who are organized and efficient, what do you reckon happens with the glass?

Matt Bain: Yeah, yeah, well, yeah. It just gets bigger. Well, or you have more people pouring it in.

Daniel Sih: Well, it gets bigger by a bit, right? Yeah. Um, whether you're more efficient or you sleep less, you can increase your capacity to a point, but there's always more water.

Yeah. I guarantee I can find more projects to give you. I can find more responsibilities, I can find more AI applications to add. Like [17:52] the water is endless, right? So it is a delusion to think you can outrun busyness.

Matt Bain: I mean, my suspicion is that people actually look for it uh for empty or spacing glasses. Yeah. So it actually attracts it does. So yes, yeah, of course. Yeah.

Daniel Sih: It's a little bit like Parkinson's law that um the work expands to fill the time available. If you create more time, you'll feel more fill it with more space. And we'll talk about that in our wise AI episode when we talk about the paradox of AI and OI, organic intelligence. [18:20] But that's the point, right? So you can't outrun business, you can't work faster and more efficiently. And that's that's the heartbeat of my question to Tanya. Well, let's imagine that you get fully organized. Do you think you'll actually find your life easier?

Well, no, of course not. So therefore, you you can't wait for what you need to invest in. So all I'm trying to say, and it's exactly what you tried to say, I just said it in more words. But I think we have to have our hands open and acknowledge that life is messy, it's busy, it's overwhelming, it's overloaded.

That's probably not gonna change, right? So if we're gonna somehow blend work in life and have the right, [18:50] I don't like the term balance, but maybe the right blend or the the right micro shifts and adjustments, it needs to be in that context of it has to be enough, but not perfect.

Matt Bain: This idea works for me. It's it's it's um better, not best.

Daniel Sih: Yeah, yeah. And once you can acknowledge that, I'm like, okay, well, I'm always gonna have an inbox. You know, something's gotta give, right? If I'm a great mum, well then I'm not gonna be so good at my health. If I'm great at my health and I'm a great mum, I won't be so good at my career. Like this, there's trade-offs. We've talked about this a lot. Um, [19:17] therefore, it's more the question of okay, well, what are the things that go in my glass first? What truly truly matters?

And how do I put them right now in that glass? And then how do I build the most efficient and the most organized systems that I can in work and life, the right rhythms and patterns, which we'll talk about as we move through this season, so that we're navigating the tension of both and as best we can without expecting that suddenly we'll be in nirvana with lots of space and time and no stress or tension. It's the avoidance of tension that's the problem, actually. [19:46] It's trying to make our life not tense and trying to gain that semblance of fake control that actually causes us the problem.

Matt Bain: Yeah, yeah. Avoidance or or you know, denial. Denial. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel Sih: Yeah. And if we can hold that reality, well, then we can find creative ways to live in the paradox.

Matt Bain: All right. Now I think it'd be a great time just to take a moment and reflect. It'd be a good chance to think about Tanya's story and how you can possibly relate to it.

But [20:10] to help kind of like land us there, I've got a um a great quote from this guy. I'm not sure. Maybe he's a physicist as well. I'm not sure. I think he won a couple of Nobel prizes. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Daniel Steve from Space Maker, here's how it goes. Highly effective people give equal attention to opposing realities. They create a rhythmical lifestyle of activity and inactivity. Connection and disconnection. For simplicity, I call this pattern keeping pace and making space. [20:37] Pace and space are the yin and the yang of personal productivity. They require skill and attention, and we must value and practice both habits if we are to live a healthy, meaningful life. Let's take a moment.

Daniel Sih: [21:21] So look, Matt, we've talked about a lot of different ideas. We've talked about the paradox of pace and space, that the blend of work and life, the overflowing glass and how hard it is to navigate. Yeah, but we want to end this with an activity. Yes.

So that people can walk away and actually do something that helps them navigate the paradox of pace and space. Yeah, that's it. That's it. What do we reckon we should do?

Matt Bain: Well, we're gonna suggest, strongly suggest that you go back and think about Tanya's story. [21:49] And um, hopefully you've done a bit of thinking about that already, this episode. And think about how it applies to your own life, particularly in relation to are you someone who, in terms of like what's the the next best thing that you could do, should you be trying to invest and make a bit more space? Or should you be trying to make some micro adjustments to keep pace? Again, everyone's gonna be different, but most people are gonna kind of land on one side of the equation more than the other. So either [22:16] do you need to make a bit more space or do you need to keep a little bit more pace?

Daniel Sih: Yeah, honestly, people know. You know how I asked Tanya, yeah. You know, if you had more space, what would you do? Immediately she said I'd be a better mum. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But if you if you said, oh, I'd actually get a career, or I'd actually like kick some goals in my work, or I'd earn some more money, yeah. Well, then you know it's got to be a keeping pace side, right?

Matt Bain: Yeah, yeah, that's it.

Daniel Sih: So um go with your gut, don't overthink it.

Matt Bain: So once you've landed on that, the next question to ask yourself is what is like one small, you call it an investment change, what's once more [22:45] micro adjustment that you can make? Again, either to make a bit more space or keep a bit more pace. Just one small thing.

Daniel Sih: So, an example, you know, making space, you might exercise. Yes. Uh, you might take some time off to think, you might book a holiday, you might have a massage, you might connect with a friend and feel like you, you know, and and increase your social life, right? So I mean, there's lots of areas.

Matt Bain: What's no reason why you can't bundle either.

Daniel Sih: We won't We might go there, but uh keeping pace, yeah, uh, you know, it could be learning to manage your inbox, put [23:13] boundaries around your time, saying no to particular calendar meetings, time blocking, uh, learning some AI skills, increasing your tech savvy, yeah, yeah, yeah. To get organized, right? So typically communications, calendars, and one uh to-do lists, I would say, right?

Matt Bain: I was looking for one more C, but that was good.

Daniel Sih: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I wasn't going for an alliteration. Just some examples.

Matt Bain: Yeah, that's great.

Daniel Sih: But a tiny small change.

Matt Bain: that is doable. A tiny, small change, Yeah, and we'd be suggesting again, like write that down. [23:41] Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So like so we talked about the importance, I guess of trying to externalize your internal commitments before in other seasons and episodes. So definitely worth writing down.

And critically, like to go back to Tanya's story. If you are going to be adding something, what is it that you're going to be subtracting as well? So it's got to be the Spacemaker law of what are we called?

Daniel Sih: Oh, it's my logic. We'll call it Daniel's law of Spacemaking. Okay. I'm hoping it'll catch on one day and no one realizes that I ripped off Newton. Um, [24:08] that sounds good. So for every action, you need an equal and opposite subtraction. There you go. There you are. Hashtag.

Yeah. And don't be hard on yourself, but just experiment, try something new. So hopefully that's this has been a helpful episode. Hopefully you've learned something valuable and meaningful next fortnight. We are going to talk about the paradox of technology and productivity. We're going to continue diving into the the text and the curriculum of Space Maker, my book. Uh, if you're interested, please pick up [24:36] Space Maker, how to unplug, unwind and think clearly in the digital age. It is five years old, but it is deeply relevant in our world today and incredibly practical and helpful. If you've found this episode useful, we would love a review. Uh reviews on Apple Podcasts or Google My Business or anywhere else you can leave a review. They're super helpful. They also encourage us and help us. And if if you have any questions, reach out to [25:01] podcast at spacemakers.au as well.

We'd like learning and hearing about what people are enjoying and what they're applying. But until next time, over to you, Matt. Make space. And keep pace.

[25:17] Thanks to our generous long-term sponsor, Bulk Nutrients. Are you ready to put these ideas into practice? If you'd like to spend a year working with me to improve your habits, productivity, and work-life rhythms, check out Productivity Masterclass at spacemakers.au/masterclass.

Narrator: The Spacemakers with Daniel Sih and Matt Bain.